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tko123 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Carlsbad
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:03 pm Post subject: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Stumped on my '66 Bug front brakes.
Driver Side
Installing new cylinder, shoes, and drum. The shoes fit the inner curve of the drum perfectly. The adjusters are adjusted all the way down and slanted correctly, the cylinders are completely compressed, and the shoes are centered. I've been at it for hours over days and the drums won't go on all the way over the shoes and there is a clearance issue. I used a mirror to confirm that the shoes are centered and evenly meeting the drums with no gaps on either side- centered.
Passenger Side
Same as driver side but using the old drum. This drum installs but it won't turn.
I read Bentley, Muir, and just about every post I can find. Stumped. _________________ '90 Vanagon
'72 Squareback
'66 Bug
VSC706 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33991 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Wrong shoes, maybe? Check the ends that fit into the adjusters and slave cylinders... straight or beveled?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608938
Also check if the leading and trailing edges of the lining are beveled.
A photo of your backing plate with all hardware installed may help us. |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5473 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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tko123 wrote: |
Stumped on my '66 Bug front brakes.
Driver Side
Installing new cylinder, shoes, and drum. The shoes fit the inner curve of the drum perfectly. The adjusters are adjusted all the way down and slanted correctly, the cylinders are completely compressed, and the shoes are centered. I've been at it for hours over days and the drums won't go on all the way over the shoes and there is a clearance issue. I used a mirror to confirm that the shoes are centered and evenly meeting the drums with no gaps on either side- centered.
Passenger Side
Same as driver side but using the old drum. This drum installs but it won't turn.
I read Bentley, Muir, and just about every post I can find. Stumped. |
I suspect one or both of the adjusters are installed backwards. The slot is angled and the deeper side of the slot should face toward the center. (adjuster with narrow flat bottom slots are for 1964 and older brakes) _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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tko123 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Carlsbad
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Negative, the slots are set correctly. Quadruple checked it. _________________ '90 Vanagon
'72 Squareback
'66 Bug
VSC706 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33991 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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The pistons on the wheel cylinder are not retracted in that photo. The boots will be folded on themselves when the pistons are fully retracted. Loosen the bleeder screw, and then push the pistons together with a pair of channel-locks. Then fit the shoes and see if the drum will fit.
Also, I can't see the shoe ends to tell if the bevel matches the rest of the hardware. |
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tko123 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Carlsbad
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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I was hoping it was something obvious. I thought I compressed the cylinders all the way but probably not. I'll try to channel locks. _________________ '90 Vanagon
'72 Squareback
'66 Bug
VSC706 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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tko123 wrote: |
I was hoping it was something obvious. I thought I compressed the cylinders all the way but probably not. I'll try to channel locks. |
7
with the bleeder open the pitons should retract easily, just push on the shoes by hand, pliars should not be needed to compress the pistons fully in once bleeder is open.
good luck
ps did you coat the piston and bore with brake paste (ie brake grease)? if not please do it, it is an important part of the process and will assure best life of the cylinder bore and piston. coat non wetted area that is protected under the boots. this keep corrosion at bay from water that may enter via the boot.
good luck _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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I've always found that when installing new brake shoes that the drums BARELY fit on. I have to get the shoes like exactly centered, tapping on them with a wooden handle as I watch from under the VW looking at the drum/brake lining interface. Yes, it can be a little bit of a hassle.
I have to say that I have never yet had to open a bleeder valve to get the wheel cylinder pistons to retract, but I think that is a very good idea. But when I change the brake shoes I do not usually combine with a brake bleeding, which of course would be needed this way. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Dr OnHolliday Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2012 Posts: 1215 Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
ps did you coat the piston and bore with brake paste (ie brake grease)? if not please do it, it is an important part of the process and will assure best life of the cylinder bore and piston. coat non wetted area that is protected under the boots. this keep corrosion at bay from water that may enter via the boot.
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I've never heard of this in 50 years of working on, modifying, reading about, studying old cars, hot rods and motorcycles. Where did you come across it? _________________ 1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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60ragtop Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006 Posts: 7800 Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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If you have new drums also, the shoes need to be centered. It almost looks like you have over sized shoes? but could be the angle. _________________ Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33991 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
bluebus86 wrote: |
ps did you coat the piston and bore with brake paste (ie brake grease)? if not please do it, it is an important part of the process and will assure best life of the cylinder bore and piston. coat non wetted area that is protected under the boots. this keep corrosion at bay from water that may enter via the boot.
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I've never heard of this in 50 years of working on, modifying, reading about, studying old cars, hot rods and motorcycles. Where did you come across it? |
VW recommended this paste in the Bentley and other manuals.
Sample:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=163899&start=0
Product link:
http://www.ate-info.de/en/products/datasheet/ate-bremszylinder-paste-180-ml/
Last edited by KTPhil on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Hi.
Yes, the brake lining on the two shoes does appear to be thicker than what I recall. Why not remove the shoes from the backing plate and see if the drum will slide onto the spindle/wheel bearings.
Normally, one does not need to exert any force to compress the pistons, in the wheel cyl's, as the larger return spring is pretty capable of returning the piston to its retracted position. But, opening the bleeder and verifying the pistons are retracted is a good idea. Is there a lip on the drum preventing it from sliding over the shoes? What is the origin of your parts? As this could be a factor here.
While not really applicable to VW mechanic's many older cars would require the use of a brake shoe/drum venier that allowed the mech to measure the drum and adjust the shoe adjuster to allow the shoes to be relatively close to the drum surface.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24732 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
I've never heard of this in 50 years of working on, modifying, reading about, studying old cars, hot rods and motorcycles. Where did you come across it? |
From the Look, Listen, Do It Better - Dealer Level Training Manuals, in the
Brake System Repairs
Slide Series No. 2.
Last paragraph "cylinder interiors should be lubricated with brake cylinder paste."
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklistendoitbetter.php
Just pulled down the 1963 transporter and 1960 beetle workshop manuals both mention using brake paste when assembling after inspection/repair..
Found few years ago Sil-Glyde Brake Lubricant, and so far no problems with it.
http://www.agscompany.com/images/stories/TDS/Brake%20Lubricant%20-%20TDS.pdf _________________ In Stereo, Where Available!
Last edited by Eric&Barb on Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tko123 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Carlsbad
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Ok, I bought new shoes from my local VW shop and yep that was the problem. She's works perfectly now. I'm learning a bunch and finally get to move this project forward.
Thanks! _________________ '90 Vanagon
'72 Squareback
'66 Bug
VSC706 |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31360 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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tko123 wrote: |
Ok, I bought new shoes from my local VW shop and yep that was the problem. She's works perfectly now. I'm learning a bunch and finally get to move this project forward.
Thanks! |
Good. Did you take any photos of the new brake shoes compared to the old ones, like side by side? Were there any obvious differences? _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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tko123 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2009 Posts: 102 Location: Carlsbad
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Front Brakes vs. Drums |
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Nope, no photos. I set the correct ones over the old ones and they almost matched up. The old ones were about 3/8" longer than the correct ones but just enough to throw everything off in terms of fit. It was odd. They were the same shape just a bit longer. _________________ '90 Vanagon
'72 Squareback
'66 Bug
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