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A Question About a Tired Old Problem
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Z00mie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Howdy Sambanites, I return seeking more knowledge!
I have a 1963 Beetle with a bone stock 1200 with a 6 volt system. It recently received a new wiring harness, Positive and negative cables, ground strap(s) fuse box, Optima battery, and new starter while simultaneously having the engine gone through. The previous owner had installed a hard start relay, which was removed when rewired. All the terminals were cleaned along with grounding points when redone. The battery shows 6.45 volts after a full charge from new. The car cold starts as if it is anxious to run, press accelerator once, hit the ignition switch and it is alive. While driving, it runs well with no mechanical hickups. If you use electrical accessories (stock AM radio and normal ancillaries, signals etc) the horn's voice becomes weak, ie as if low voltage, everything else is boringly normal. If you stop for a brief period and attempt to restart, you're met with clicks. Eventually after a number of key turns it will start as if nothing ever happened (turns over briskly, fires up immediately).
I am about to go to the garage and do a basic check of the charging system-again, voltmeter on battery, check volts. Start engine, check voltage. Rev engine, check voltage. If this checks out positive, what would you folks recommend next? I really do not want to go back to the Hard start relay because I feel like it's a band aid, and actually, now that I think about it, it seemed to have these exact symptoms with the relay as without. Generator, Voltage regulator, ignition switch?
Could this just be the generator not producing enough voltage to keep the battery charged and run the ancillary electrics, causing the system voltage to droop (net voltage loss from running, ancillaries, sucking down the battery) so that at restart it struggles. Or possibly just a bad ignition switch?
I am very happy with this wonderful car, I am totally frustrated with this niggling problem though Rolling Eyes ! Please assist! Embarassed
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grandpa pete
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Any chance this is newly painted ?
There have been several posts about " clean " grounds not working through new paint .

What"s the voltage when the car is running ?
What"s the voltage when the car is running WITH the radio on ?
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Z00mie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Okay, so I stepped out to the garage, unplugged the battery maintainer and check battery voltage, 6.7 volts. Hit the starter and...click (as if dead battery). First time its done that?! Hit the starter again, and jumps to life! Voltage at idle is 6.5v. Voltage at fast idle and above is 7.0 volts. Hmmmm...
Can the ignition switch be disassembled possibly? Or, maybe hose the electrical portion with contact cleaner (after removal) if unable to disassemble? Other stuff I may not be considering?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

G-pa, No, no new paint. I'll check when running with ancillaries operating
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

6.5 volts at start. With everything on at idle, 6.0v. RPM's 1600-1800 est. with everything on: 6.2-6.3volts. Horn (horn is new 6 volt also) becomes weak at this point...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Everything sounds good to this point. I would suggest a different starter. New or rebuilt starters have been known to be bad out of the box. Another possibility is the starter bushing itself may be worn. But, I would sway more towards a defective starter.

And where are you taking voltage readings? Battery. That's fine, but voltage drop can be measured at different points along the wiring
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Flyboy, The measurement is being taken from the pigtail attached to the battery (for the Battery Tender). The car when it had the previous starter was displaying these same symptoms. However, I still have it and went out to put a battery on it just to confirm its condition on the bench. It would not rotate with a fresh 6 volt battery. It could be a starter I suppose. I think the weak horn is a clue to the problem/solution somehow though...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Is the new harness the proper gauge wire? I did some work on a 37 chevy that would act that way. A friend that owned some 6v Bantam vehicles said to try a heavier battery cable. We went from the 12v parts store 4 gauge battery cables to hand made 00, and it started every time. After working on a friends 59 Beetle with a new ignition switch, and new wiring connections, he was having the same issue. First thing we did was to run 8 gauge to the regulator, up to properly power the ignition replacing the 14 gauge someone had spliced in. We then installed an 8 gauge ground wire from the starter to the battery, and 10 gauge wire through a hard start relay, and never had another issue since. 6v stuff needs the wire thickness to carry the amperage. I know it "shouldn't" need all of that stuff, but he, and his wife have never worried about the car starting. The 6.0 metric wire VW had to the ignition was between an 8-10 gauge by American standards. Does your harness have that to the ignition, and something close to 10 gauge going to the starter? Do you have a heavy battery cable, or simply an autoparts store replacement most likely for a 12v system?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Horn wiring is a tricky thing. Lots of potential for voltage drop. The power for the horn and the ground circuit is the funny thing. The wiring comes from the fuse down to the horn. From the horn the brown wire returns to the steering column tube. There is a spade terminal there that is riveted to the tube. It often goes missed when cleaning terminals. The tube is electrically isolated from the body by a rubber bumper. So current travels up the tube to to the steering wheel. This is all through physical connection, steering wheel nut, etc. Under the horn ring is a brass ring that is flat. My brass ring had a buildup of green corrosion on it and that caused me problems. The screws that hold the horn ring on have nylon hat bushings on them that hold that away from the steering wheel and thus away from ground. The horn ring has a brown wire attached to it that runs down the center of the steering shaft. The brown wire exits the tube at the steering coupler clamp and attaches to another spade terminal. Then there is the strap across the coupler or lack of one depending on the year. On my '64 there is no strap because the terminal that is attached to a washer attaches to the steering box bolt on the steering coupler. This is I turn leads to the steering box and back to the frame ground. I still have the weak horn problem with headlights on because I did a half arsed job of cleaning the whole setup. But I know where my problem lies and I live with it. Mine is still under the horn ring.

Long explanation I know, but the point is any dirt or corrosion along that path (especially at the steering tube and under the horn ring) will cause enough of a voltage drop to befuddle even the best horn. Also, consider replacing the fuse block itself. WW makes a fine replacement and that solved most of my starter woes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

The wiring harness itself was a wiring works (as recommended on here). The battery cables were not purchased by me, the installer (Monkey nut) sourced those and did the install. The Positive is 3/8 diameter. The negative is braided.
F-Boy, thanks a bunch for the info. The fuse block is a new WW unit.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Z00mie wrote:
6.5 volts at start. With everything on at idle, 6.0v. RPM's 1600-1800 est. with everything on: 6.2-6.3volts. Horn (horn is new 6 volt also) becomes weak at this point...

Since that voltage measurement is at the battery (later post of yours) I would back it up with a voltage test up front with the same conditions. The fuse at one end of your fuse block only has voltage when the ignition switch is on. I would test at that fuse, doing the same tests as before. It is easy to fund the fuse you want, the one at the other end is aways hot, the ones in the middle are all lights.

I'm suspecting a voltage drop between the back of the car and the front of the car. It may well be the cause of all your problems as the starter solenoid doesn't work well without more than 5 volts at it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

As for where to take voltage readings, the battery charger location only tells you the battery is good. It's out there on the perimeter that the gremlins reveal themselves. If you check terminal 30 at the headlight switch and read 6.5 volts, good. Follow it to to the fuse block. 6.5 is good. Follow it back to 30 on the ignition switch, 6.5 good. 6.0, bad. You found a voltage drop. Now measure from the fuse block to the switch at each end of the wire connecting the two: if it reads .5V you found a bad wire or perhaps the crimp is dirty or the terminals. Fix that voltage drop and then move on down the circuit. Fix all the voltage drops and you'll eventually fix all your issues. Be systematic with it. Go in to the tech section here, find your wire diagram, print it and mark each voltage drop you find and fix. Trust me, it works
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

The fact that it starts perfectly intermittently suggests that all is well except for an intermittent electrical resistance or mechanical drag problem. I would suspect a faulty ignition switch before solenoid contacts since the latter are supposed to be new and OK. You could test at the solenoid with a jumper wire to see if that works reliably. If so, the ignition switch is suspect. Was the starter bushing checked for wear when the new starter went in? Also, the feeble horn is possibly a coincidence and it may have problems of it's own.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply gents. It looks like I've got some testing to do so I'll go get started. I'll try to get back and post some results when complete.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

To me the hard start relay is a clue. It was put on for a reason and is not the real fix just a band aid. try removing the starter cleaning the areas where the starter body and the transmission mate up until they are shiny. Reinstall and see if that isn't the remedy.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

key turned and you hear a click thats the starter relay pulling in, if the starter does not start / rotate every time replace the relay as contacts are pitted up from an old low voltage problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

I got side tracked so haven't gotten a chance to continue the pursuit. However, I did take the car on a quick errand and sure enough it failed to restart. I hadn't noticed before but it really dims the interior and dash lights (it was dusk) when the starter is engaged and doesn't rotate the engine
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

Why are you guys so against relays? I didn't replace the starter on the 59 I was working on, but all other connections/switches/wiring was replaced, and it still would have issues every once in a while. Might the contact points be burnt in it? Possibly, but it works fine with the relay. Same with the horn. New Hella horn, and with the exception of disassembling the steering column to rewire the horn brush contact ring, it too sounded pitiful. After we put a relay in the horn wiring, my friend helping told me to try the horn, he split his head open on the underside of the trunk lid it was so loud. Fix what needs fixing, but if EVERYTHING in your circuit is new, and your still having trouble, why keep chasing your tail? There are lots of 6v owners happily driving their cars around with relay amended circuits, never worrying about said circuits not working. The 59 I worked on had the usual dirty wiring/fuse box. After cleaning all that, everything worked 100%, except the starter/horn, so we added the relays to make 100% sure they would work at full capacity all the time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

I guess it's because the usual culprit is poor grounds and that can be remedied with some time and effort and not a lot of money spent. As we all know most VW owners are cheap #$$%# unless they have something for sale in the classifieds. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: A Question About a Tired Old Problem Reply with quote

The downside of relays is that they add several more failure points including many extra connections-- and we all know faulty connections are the number one cause of electrical failures in these cars.

That said, there are a few cases where I agree with using a relay, the first is to reduce the current load on a rare ignition switch.

But if you do add a relay, do it right and locate it inside the car, not under the car where water, dirt and road debris will damage it.
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