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What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components?
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nicholastanguma
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:47 am    Post subject: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Which brands make the best quality points ignition components? Points, condenser, everything. I don't necessarily reject Chinese manufactured parts, but I do necessarily reject crappy quality.

I don't want to use electronic ignition on my Type 4 engine anymore. The bus isn't a daily driver, so I'm not worried about convenience. Rather, I'd like to keep true to the mechanical soul of old aircooled technology that attracted me to old VWs in the first place.

All of my motorcycles are kickstart-only, and even use magnetos in place of batteries; I'd like to get my bus back in line with that purely mechanical aesthetic.


Last edited by nicholastanguma on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

New old stock bosch if you can search through the classifieds, you can't beat original equipment
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

We are entering the realm of, not which brand of ignition components are the highest quality, but which brand of components are simply available. I do agree that Bosch once was the highest quality, but the last few years of 01011 points were less than desireable, not even having the contact pads being parallel. If your vehicle doesn't get driven much, and gets ignition components replaced every five years or so, stock up now. In five years It may cost you several hundred dollars to do a tune up with Bosch components if/when you find them. A few months ago I got a set of 356 Beru plug wires with the short plug ends for a Beetle, and was impressed with the quality. Maybe someone like Glenn that uses a lot of Beru/Bremi stuff can post some cross reference numbers for common Bosch stuff.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Bosch is the best quality but they are now discontinuing making replacement parts for our 50 year old cars.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

I find Bremi to be better quality at the moment.

Bosch no longer makes points for any of the cast iron models. They also don't make condensers for the 36hp. They also discontinued spark plug wires.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
I find Bremi to be better quality at the moment.

Bosch no longer makes points for any of the cast iron models. They also don't make condensers for the 36hp. They also discontinued spark plug wires.


The shop I used to work at is slowly finding out Bosch components for more common modern distributors are going NLA. Suppliers he has used for 27+ years are simply running out of stock. He hasn't been able to get a Bosch 02086 009 condenser for a few months now. Although, he has been selling Empi's replacement 009 condenser for a while without any issues.

Do you have any cross reference books for any Bremi numbers for common Bosch stuff?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

There are still NOS components of good quality from a variety of manufacturers out there. Bremmi and Beru may be filling the gap left behind by Bosch.

I've always found Blue Streak to be of good quality.

Bosch wasn't always the factory supplier for ignition components. Beru and Garbe Lahmeyer was used periodically. I've been using up a case of Vertex brand 02069 condensers that were made in Mexico in the 1970's. They came from a closed dealership stock shelf and have Englewood Cliffs NJ (VWOA headquarters) as their location marked on the box. They are of high quality.

Wolfsburg West has stepped up recently. I am not sure who their manufacturer is but they are reproducing the caps and other distributor components.

Some of us are hoarding- for good reason. I have two cases of German Bosch 069 condensers manufactured in February of 1977. I'm resisting breaking into them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
We are entering the realm of, not which brand of ignition components are the highest quality, but which brand of components are simply available. I do agree that Bosch once was the highest quality, but the last few years of 01011 points were less than desireable, not even having the contact pads being parallel. If your vehicle doesn't get driven much, and gets ignition components replaced every five years or so, stock up now. In five years It may cost you several hundred dollars to do a tune up with Bosch components if/when you find them. A few months ago I got a set of 356 Beru plug wires with the short plug ends for a Beetle, and was impressed with the quality. Maybe someone like Glenn that uses a lot of Beru/Bremi stuff can post some cross reference numbers for common Bosch stuff.


Sounds like a project for Andy: Glutamodo. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

tasb wrote:
I have two cases of German Bosch 069 condensers manufactured in February of 1977. I'm resisting breaking into them.


If you have resisted breaking into an entire case since 1977 you clearly don't need them. It's time to help some fellow Sambans out before they all convert to electronic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

yamaducci wrote:
tasb wrote:
I have two cases of German Bosch 069 condensers manufactured in February of 1977. I'm resisting breaking into them.


If you have resisted breaking into an entire case since 1977 you clearly don't need them. It's time to help some fellow Sambans out before they all convert to electronic.


I don't think he's had them since 1977, I think that's simply when they were made.

That's the double edged sword of offering a service on components 35+ years old. You either pass on the cost of parts increases, or in a case of sources of parts drying up completely, discontinue the service. I know someone that does transaxle work that is alway selling his inventory, and never saves any parts for rebuilding. Then he sometimes scrambles to find more cores to get parts for rebuilding when he realizes he sold all of his inventory of a certian gear needed for a rebuild.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Exactly, I've had the two Bosch cases for less than a year and have been working through, over the past ten years, the five cases of Vertex condensers as mentioned above. I've been sharing a plenty as I've rebuilt 100's SVA distributors.

Something else to consider is that if the distributor is regularly maintained the tune up components need not be replaced nearly as often as manufacturer recommendations. If the points cam is lubricated on schedule and the cap and rotor cleaned periodically they can last four to five times longer than the recommendation. Glenn has a set of points that he's been running for 75,000 miles, I think it was, and I have a condenser on my Garbe Lahmeyer distributor that has been in use for approximately five years that was manufactured in 1955.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

tasb wrote:

Something else to consider is that if the distributor is regularly maintained the tune up components need not be replaced nearly as often as manufacturer recommendations. If the points cam is lubricated on schedule and the cap and rotor cleaned periodically they can last four to five times longer than the recommendation.

true I had a good set of points in my 36 HP for I don't know how many years and over 150K. Every time I checked the dwell it was the same never varied. So why change out a good known set of points ? And on a side note I just use wheel bearing grease on the cam pivot Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

anybody try Standard brand, often sold by napa?

They certainly have the best oil pressure sensors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Beru has always been my preferred supplier for ignition components...got a tip on this from a German-trained VW mechanic back in the late 70's (although I've used Bosch as well).

Beru is now part of the Federal Mogul group and they still supply ignition parts for 1500/1600 VW air-cooled engines manufactured during the 1960's/70's (some Beru parts are still manufactured in Germany, others have been moved to plants on other continents).

I recently picked up ignition points, spark plugs, condensers, rotors and distributor caps for my 1500 cc '68 Beetle engine. I especially like their condensers as they seem to prolong points lifespan.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

modok wrote:
anybody try Standard brand, often sold by napa?

They certainly have the best oil pressure sensors.


Yes, Standard parts in the red box. I've used their generator brushes and transmission reverse light sensor on my 2332 cc. No complaints.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

WolfGang seems to have a lot of Bosch left.
https://www.wolfgangint.com/store/parts/bosch/Bug/
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

modok wrote:
anybody try Standard brand, often sold by napa?

They certainly have the best oil pressure sensors.


Yes.....they are the best....and have always been better than Bosch. The standard Ignition products points are actuall made by the same cmpany that makes Bluestreak.

This is not saying that Bosch points were shit. Back in the day....they were top notch. However.....back in the day and even now.....the Bluestreak points were ALWAYS a notch or two better than Bosch.

They have larger, flatter electrodes with better welding around the edges.....not just a tack weld on the lower electrode , a thicker frame, a frame made of copper. ...and the fixed electrode has a nice design that keeps it from forming the "tit" when it pits (fixed electrode is hollow in the center).....and they have a lubrication wick built in.....and have a bigger wire and connector.

Standard has several levels of build. I am pretty sure they have discontinued the actual Blue streak version. ....but even the "standard" standard igntion points are excellent.

I think I posted photos and part #s on this month's ago.

The problem I found with Bosch.....was startijg in the mid 80's when they started building them outside of Germany.....whole production lots would come in with points contacts misaligned...either moving arm was bent or fixed arm was bent.....and some had the fixed contact overheated when it was spot welded on....leaving a high spot from day one that promoted carbonizing quickly.

Before I switched to Bluestreak ....which was a pain because they were harder to find at that time......it was common for a year or two to have to go to my favorite foreign parts stores....and look at the whole sheet of Bosch points blister packs they had in stock....just to find one set of points that did not need work out of the box.

This issue came and went for a couple of years before Bosch seemed to get it under control.

By that time I had happily gone to Pertronix. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

I would like to add that NOS Made in West Germany Doduco points and condenser are of good quality, I forgot about them in my earlier post. They were sold through BAP-GEON back in the day.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

So not to get too geeky on you….but since you guys brought up points (always been very interested)…..even though I am not really a points user other than backup anymore…but might be at some point if I use them as a triggering mechanism for a different ignition (no current through the points)…..and for 2/3 of my ACVW driving life…I used points…..I thought I would share what I know and think about the brands I used.

Back in the day when there were no quality “questions” about Bosch points, they were the benchmark and pretty much were just perfect for any application…especially the 009/050 tiger stripe points. There was really no need to look at anything else.

Outside of a couple of set of Beru and a couple of sets of Mahle-Knecht points….both of which were just not easy to find back where I lived in the day and I have no examples of….pretty much my range of usage were Bosch, Standard Motor Products (Blue Streak), Borg warner (which is now owned by Standard Motor Products)/ Wells (now Airtex-Wells), and NAPA-Echlin/Niehoff.

It’s hard to say who owns who…but Standard Motor Products lists that their companies and the products they make for NAPA include brand names:

Standard
Borg Warner Division (BWD)/Niehoff
NAPA/Echlin
NAPA Belden
Sorensen
Intermotor


Anyway…because I ran on points for so long (and close to a million miles) and mainly on 411,412 and 914 with D-jet and all with relatively high compression and leaner burn settings than the pig rich factory settings…..and with the factory coils being just barely adequate for that set up…… BETTER POINTS made a huge difference when I could get them.

If the points started to burn and got that little “peak” on either electrode….dwell time was affected and that makes a large difference with D-jet injection. So I started paying attention to the details (materials and build methods) of those points that worked better.

For years the Bosch 1 237 013 092 tiger stripe points for 009 and 050 worked just fine. As Glenn noted many times….great build quality, reinforced FR4/Bakelite/phenolic rubbing block and all tungsten electrodes…what more could you want. Those were not always common stock around where I lived. And the basic Bosch 01011…were barely adequate even before the build quality dropped off…then came back up…then dropped off again.

Looking around for better and more available points……I found that in order…the best brands of points I have used have been:

SMP Blue Streak
SMP “P” series
Bosch Tiger Stripe for 009/050
SMP “T” series
NAPA Echlin
NAPA Niehoff

Note:
Borg Warner and Wells….I always found to be poor knock offs after a certain point in time.
At one point in time Wells was a really highly respected name in ignition products with great quality.
By the mid to late 80’s the products were pretty poor in materials as they went third world.
But they began to have some uncanny manufacturing similarities to some of the SMP and NAPA products….and later in the “internet age” I found out why because all of these guys were manufacturing either complete parts or sub-assemblies for each other in various grades.

It’s interesting that the crappy Wells points can turn into pretty high quality NAPA Echlin points with just a few “detail” changes or material changes….all else the same.

So here are some of the point sets in my museum and the differences:

SMP Blue Streak


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So this is a dirty used set of Blue Streak points. Make note that the frame/bracket is Yellow zinc plated instead of solid copper like classic Blue Streak points.
Even SMP went through a “cheaper made” phase with a different letter code back in the late 90s’. Also note the fork in lower right that holds the lubricating wick. These are really just “P” series…..what were eventually inserted into their line between the Blue-Streak and basic “T” series.

At one point in time the cost differences between these parts were significant. “T” series running about $7-8, “P” series could be $10-11 and Blue-Streak even back in the day were a scary $13-15 a set.

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Things of note in the pictures: Very large heavy, thick electrode, solid tungsten with a center hole to prevent the pit or tit from forming, large solid square bushing to ride on, very heavy duty arm mounting, heavy duty swaging for the axle pin.

Electrode diameter 0.210”

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NOS “classic” blue streak box….and contents

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Note the 100% copper HEAVY frame, lube wick, heavy gauge wire etc.

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Note the very thick, flat and level electrodes…and they are solid tungsten…note…that there is no crown line on either electrode of either tungsten plate or tungsten cap like you see on other points (later pictures)

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Very heavy electrode with center vent to prevent pit/peak forming. The only reason the electrode diameter is so large is to have pretty much standard size area with the hole in the center.

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The spring is about 3X the strength of Bosch 01011 points. It’s also stainless steel.

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Also if you notice…the spring has a copper conductor spring strip on the inside. SMP does this on all of their “P” series points. It’s also part of why the spring tension is so high.

This combined spring thickness is 0.025”

SMP “T” Series

Standard motor products has three main series:

1. Blue Streak (everything is better and heavier than stock)

2. “P” series…which is a basic OEM replacement points set (standard frame material, standard electrode size, standard wire gauge) but with improvements like the copper conductor, solid tungsten electrodes, higher spring tension and better construction

3. “T” series which SMP’s version of a stock point set….stock spring tension, stock electrode diameter, stock frame material…..but may be better than basic points just from build quality.

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This is an SMP “T”-series…same basic construction as the blue streaks….but lighter spring tension, no copper conductor spring, narrower pivot arm….an SMP version of a basic points set, but still nice…solid copper arm and thick solid tungsten…very flat/parallel electrodes.

Still a very nice points set for a stock replacement offering.
Electrode Diameter: 0.186” (same as the Wells version of this)

NOTE: at about half the price of blue streaks back in the day…one would ask why you would pay more for blue streak when these are quite nice…only about $2 more than Bosch.


I found these “T” series points had issues in very hot climates on certain cars…..like my 412…but not my Saab 900 or my one Chevy that I ever owned.

If your car is similar to my VW 412….with a sealed engine compartment…. in 100°+ degree weather driving long distance…it’s not uncommon to have distributor temperatures measure up to around 275°F.
They can get hot enough that cheap plastics on the condenser bung can distort…and cheap epoxy on rotor wires from the carbon brush to the tip can get tacky.

Add to this….the point sets get VERY hot. If you don’t believe that…understand the temperature generated at 1500 times per minute within the arc of the points that gets the tungsten hot enough to cause pits and burning. The pivot arm attached to the contact gets very hot too.

I found several times that in hot engine bays like mine in hot environments there is just not enough cooling and the narrower arm of the T-series points would…..distort…causing the contacts to be at an angle to each other and change the gap.

I never had any issues with the “T” series on buses….type 3, my Saab or any of my water cooled cars with points…mainly I am pretty sure…because they have much better engine compartment ventilation and the distributors stayed noticeably cooler.

Borg Warner/Wells….same parts generally with minor changes

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In most ways these were competent points….or should have been. As you will see…they used stampings and parts made by SMP…but with subtle material and construction changes that made them miserable in high heat environments.

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Good frame to arm bushing, stainless spring but flimsier stamped arm

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I took this picture for a reason. Note the reflection that is to the 5 o’clock of the rivet that holds on the rubbing block. This shows one of the major defects. It’s compressing the rather flexible nylon material used for the rubbing block.
They would get sloppy with heat and were very quickly.
It’s not that nylon is bad…but it has to be formulated for high heat and has to be formulated for rigidity as well. This was not.

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Electrode is exact same diameter as SMP “T” series…. 0.186” (probably because SMP made it) and note the plating line on the lower electrode matching the plating of the tungsten top electrode. Problem is that if you have to file the peak on a lower electrode…you go through the tungsten plating.

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Nothing special or bad about the frame, the wire crimp or the lug…but nothing that screams high quality either.

Note:

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The set on the left is the older BWD/Wells points we just looked at.
On the right is the same basic point set as the wells…but offered in the NAPA Echlin line a few years back and is currently the A520P.

It is using much better rubbing block materials, better conductor, swaging and stiffer spring tension…..but otherwise both units are either made entirely by SMP or components are made for both companies by SMP.


Current NAPA part #’s (all made by SMP)


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This is from the current NAPA catalog. Their basic point set for VW type 4 and others. Note the shape, construction and swaging on the pivot pin. This is Borg Warner made by SMP. These are listed as heavy duty and are $7.65 each

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This is the NAPA/Echlin ECH 313P ….next series up. Note the “P” which denotes a standard replacement set with higher build quality. Note the copper conductor strip against the spring, and they have the “vented” fixed electrode like the blue streak points….so they have a lot of the material improvements of the blue streak….but otherwise Borg warner construction. $7.20 each

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This is the NAPA MPE CS313SB. It is obviously an SMP “T” series….tungsten contacts, copper arm etc. I am not sure how these are placed in the lineup but are listed as their “Mileage plus line” and are $7.20

And not surprisingly….if you Google search for the Standard Motor products catalog….this page comes up:

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Bosch 01011

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This is what I would call a “middle years” set. Probably late 90’s (?)

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It had the white (hard, high temperature nylon…probably something like DuPont Zytel) rubbing block which worked pretty well….or at least it no longer seemed to crack at the “L-joint” like the cheaper shiny black hard plastic rubbing block from like mid to late 90’s (which I suspect was Delrin…totally wrong material choice)….but was still nowhere as good as the 50’s to 80’s phenolic rubbing blocks.

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Also the electrodes had improved (or at least regressed to their former levels of build quality). They are nice and thick and had a diameter of 0.194”…Bosch has always had good electrode composition….but are notably tungsten capped or plated on both electrodes….not solid.

And the other issue….many of the Bosch points of this era were coming with with a damaged fixed electrode. Usually with a peak or dome on them because the spot weld was overheated. It was hit and miss for a while….which is why I searched for other points.

But….the big issue I was having with Bosch points of this era…is that to get the electrodes as generally parallel as they are in this picture….many times just out of the package the arm and fixed electrodes both had to be bent/adjusted as you can see in this picture.

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Just a comparison in wire size between Blue Streak and Bosch 01011.

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Even though spring “thickness” is not always a linear measure of temper or tension force, the spring tension of these points sets is fairly well illustrated by these measurements once you feel a few and run a few. The Bosch 01011 is pretty much the bench mark basic.

The Wells and Borg Warner basic replacement points of yore at .016” spring thickness were almost identical to Bosch (and in actual tension) and probably built right off of blueprints to match what was considered stock.

The Blue Streak points are easily 3X the tension of the rest of this field except for the Borg Warner/Echlin/Standard A520P…which uses the same spring. Great for higher rpm.

Anyway, sorry for the length but just wanted to go through some of the details I see and look for in points quality. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What Brands Make The Best Quality Points Ignition Components? Reply with quote

Quote:
So not to get too geeky on you….but since you guys brought up points (always been very interested)

Wow Ray. Very informative. Thanks for the write up.
I recently bought a set of points from the flaps.
Complete junk. I had to hand tune them before I could even bring myself to install them. I can't remember the brand, but based on the thorough information that you have posted. Next time I need to replace them. I'll see if I can get a better quality set from Napa.
Thanks again.
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