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rsthj
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2015
Posts: 65
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:58 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| jimmy1614 wrote: |
I wire brushed either side of the cut in the tunnel to see if I could see any of the vin. I could see the whole last number and the beginning of the first on either side of the cut. Both those numbers match the vin on my title which also matches the plate under the hood. The chances this thing was pan swapped over the years to a 1960 pan that had matching first and last numbers to the vin from the body are slim to none. Im pretty sure the pan and body have never been apart.
Thanks for lookin out though Bill! |
I think you are missing Bill's point. The problem is not that the pan has been swapped or that the vehicle was previously stolen, the problem is that the VIN has been tampered with. If you go to the DMV now, as is, they will be able to evaluate the situation and stamp a new VIN plate for you. If you skip this step and repair the hack job, you will be driving a vehicle that has the VIN removed. (front plate doesn't count) Then, if you are ever in a situation where the VIN is being checked, your vehicle is going to be impounded and assumed stolen. (I've been there with an ancient BSA with a questionable history)
This problem is simple and relatively cheap to fix now. If you risk it and lose, it will be quite expensive to fix later. $.02 |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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I do agree the area where the vin is needs to be addressed, but I feel it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. It may be very simple, or the other extreme, you may get your car taken from you. I've delt with titling issues in PA. All methods were perfectly legal, but the ones where you went out of your way to be up front, and honest caused the worst amount of red tape. Your not trying to change the vin number, simply repair/replace the original. Go to Harbor Freight, and buy a 1/4 punch set, hand punch the title number as straight as you can into a plate, and weld it in place.
| rsthj wrote: |
| Then, if you are ever in a situation where the VIN is being checked, your vehicle is going to be impounded and assumed stolen. |
What is to distinguish the situation from them not impounding the vehicle thinking it is stolen now? |
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TinCanFab
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 2743
Location: Waterford, California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
I do agree the area where the vin is needs to be addressed, but I feel it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. It may be very simple, or the other extreme, you may get your car taken from you. I've delt with titling issues in PA. All methods were perfectly legal, but the ones where you went out of your way to be up front, and honest caused the worst amount of red tape. Your not trying to change the vin number, simply repair/replace the original. Go to Harbor Freight, and buy a 1/4 punch set, hand punch the title number as straight as you can into a plate, and weld it in place.
| rsthj wrote: |
| Then, if you are ever in a situation where the VIN is being checked, your vehicle is going to be impounded and assumed stolen. |
What is to distinguish the situation from them not impounding the vehicle thinking it is stolen now? |
I agree. I bought a 67 bus with all the correct paperwork and matching 67 VIN #'s. I was concerned that the title said it was a 64, and while changing the title to my name I figured I should get the correct year printed on the new one. Big mistake even though it was an obvious DMV screw up from the past. So, the DMV lady comes out to the parking lot to get all started. She notices it's a passenger model bus that is missing the rear interior and is nice enough to tell me to quietly come back with some sort of seats otherwise they have to issue new plates for a commercial cargo van AND charge double for weight fees....  they are not qualified to inspect the details of classic car VIN's. Now, I had to make an appointment with highway patrol to have a VIN verification done. While they were at it, brake and light inspections. All went smoothly because there never WAS an issue at all except for the year on the title! Next, I had to pay for new plates because changing the year required me to start ALL over!
This was over 4 digits printed by THEM on a piece of paper! If they see that hack you are in for some headaches. Weld in a new piece and just stamp the number in cleanly. From the looks of it, you were never going to know the # that was there in the first place.
For my bug on a different visit, another employee just saw me standing in line with a pair of vintage plates. She literally told me to give them to her that they belong to the state of California. Hell no, I bought them at a swap meet. 
The same bug has been sitting on a 59 pan for at least 20 years but registered as the 58 # on the body. I'm never going to try to fix that mess. I just stay off the radar by paying the fees timely and never let it get backed up! Nobody has ever cared to ever check the pan since I bought in 2001. I'll just play stupid if an issue ever occurs- if possession is 9/10's of the law, my 16 years of ownership is on my side.
_________________
Check out my truck brought back from the dead... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420762&highlight=sprayed+blood
They're never really ever finished 58 rag build...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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rsthj
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2015
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
I do agree the area where the vin is needs to be addressed, but I feel it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. It may be very simple, or the other extreme, you may get your car taken from you. I've delt with titling issues in PA. All methods were perfectly legal, but the ones where you went out of your way to be up front, and honest caused the worst amount of red tape. Your not trying to change the vin number, simply repair/replace the original. Go to Harbor Freight, and buy a 1/4 punch set, hand punch the title number as straight as you can into a plate, and weld it in place.
| rsthj wrote: |
| Then, if you are ever in a situation where the VIN is being checked, your vehicle is going to be impounded and assumed stolen. |
What is to distinguish the situation from them not impounding the vehicle thinking it is stolen now? |
The suggestion to restamp the VIN yourself is remarkably bad advice. Go through the hassle of the red tape and do it legally. The vehicle, as is, has a damaged VIN and the reason for the damage is obvious. As soon as you repair that mess and further alter the VIN, all bets are off.
Relevant story of a man who restored a VIN: http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2012/07/30/felony-c...-corvette/ |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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Sorry, I'm with roachdub58. PA issues little aluminum stamped tags with reissued vin's that do not have any of the original VW vin in them for specially constructed fiberglass buggy's using VW pans. Looking at buying a Beetle with some sort of reissued tag like that would raise way more red flags than a body/title matching number hand stamped into the pan in the correct location. As soon as the inspection reviels the hacked modification that damaged the pan, and the fact that the vin is 6 numbers unlike modern 15+ digit vins containing numbers/letters, the can of worms will be opened.
A beater Beetle, and a NCRS judged 100 point show Corvette are on two separate planets on two separate universes. I guess all the companies offering "show quality replacement vin tags" are all comiting felonies as well? And what you didn't read in the Corvette story is that those sorting out the facts usually do not care about a solution to the situation, and is most likely easier for them to impound, and crush the car. |
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jimmy1614
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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Im not "missing" anyone's point. The gentleman I purchased the car from just went through the whole process of getting the title fixed this year. Title search power of attorney highway patrol, whole nine yards. If i couldnt see the vin I would be worried. It is documented and will be fixed! Either way im not here to debate this with anyone although I do appreciate everyone's concern.
Side note, thanks to everyone who helped with the mount and nose cone situation. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:27 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| Yeah, to get the train back on the tracks... If you are doing a stock restoration, I would keep the 60 mount. If you are not, I would weld in an adapter from someone like Berrien Buggy, so that way you could use a later more common stock mount. 60 mounts are only going to get harder to find, and any performance mount kit will be based of a 61-later trans. Either way, you will still need the Bus nosecone for the later trans. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:19 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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If you not going for stock you can weld in a later mount and no longer have to run a bus nosecone. You can use the standard '60's to early '70's nosecone and mount. I wouldn't weld in a '59 down mount and have to use a Bus nosecone.
If you are going for stock the '60 split case transaxle has a 1 year only (in the USA) nose cone and there may be other (case??) differences too. You cannot swap nose cones so easily on the split case because a bearing preload is set with gaskets on those boxes.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| Yeah, to get the train back on the tracks... If you are doing a stock restoration, I would keep the 60 mount. If you are not, I would weld in an adapter from someone like Berrien Buggy, so that way you could use a later more common stock mount. 60 mounts are only going to get harder to find, and any performance mount kit will be based of a 61-later trans. Either way, you will still need the Bus nosecone for the later trans. |
Not true. Installing a later style front mount mounting bracket such as this
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
will allow you to use a standard type one nose cone on a '61 and later tunnel transmission.
You only use the bus nosecone if you keep the stock front mounting bracket and mount.
_________________
Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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It is if you want the engine to sit in it's factory location. The WW mount will allow a true bolt up setup once installed, but it will still jack the rear of the engine up in the air. It's about the location of the nose cone entering the tunnel, and that can not be changed with any mount on the pan.
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jimmy1614
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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So even if I weld in the later mount, the bus nose cone is still required for proper engine angle? Without the nose cone it will fit without modding the body but will just be slightly off axis? Now this is something i haven't read yet. They welded the shift rod to the hockey stick so its wrecked. Looks like I need bus nose cone no matter what?
Thanks again, you guys are awesome! |
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| jimmy1614 wrote: |
So even if I weld in the later mount, the bus nose cone is still required for proper engine angle?
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From WW site . . . .
"Description: TRANSMISSION MOUNT PLATE, use this unit to bolt a 1961-1967 transmission into a 1960 and earlier Beetle without changing the nose cone, welding required" http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
This mount gets welded to the torsion bar housing outer tube . . . original mount bracket gets trimmed off first.
NO "Bus Nose-Cone" needed if you weld in this mount
You should also get another "hockey Stick", and shift-rod, and a shift-rod coupler to match your transaxle.
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
| jimmy1614 wrote: |
So even if I weld in the later mount, the bus nose cone is still required for proper engine angle?
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From WW site . . . .
"Description: TRANSMISSION MOUNT PLATE, use this unit to bolt a 1961-1967 transmission into a 1960 and earlier Beetle without changing the nose cone, welding required" http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
This mount gets welded to the torsion bar housing outer tube . . . original mount bracket gets trimmed off first.
NO "Bus Nose-Cone" needed if you weld in this mount
You should also get another "hockey Stick", and shift-rod, and a shift-rod coupler to match your transaxle. |
Not to be rude about it but [email protected] doesn't know what he is talking about. I have done this conversion in a '60 and just as 57BLITZ stated, I welded in the same mount that I linked that WW sells and installed a later tunnel transmission with a standard beetle nose cone. Everything lined up perfectly.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
It is if you want the engine to sit in it's factory location. The WW mount will allow a true bolt up setup once installed, but it will still jack the rear of the engine up in the air. It's about the location of the nose cone entering the tunnel, and that can not be changed with any mount on the pan.
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100% wrong.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
From WW site . . . .
"Description: TRANSMISSION MOUNT PLATE, use this unit to bolt a 1961-1967 transmission into a 1960 and earlier Beetle without changing the nose cone, welding required" http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
This mount gets welded to the torsion bar housing outer tube . . . original mount bracket gets trimmed off first.
NO "Bus Nose-Cone" needed if you weld in this mount
You should also get another "hockey Stick", and shift-rod, and a shift-rod coupler to match your transaxle. |
Not to be rude about it but [email protected] doesn't know what he is talking about. I have done this conversion in a '60 and just as 57BLITZ stated, I welded in the same mount that I linked that WW sells and installed a later tunnel transmission with a standard beetle nose cone. Everything lined up perfectly. |
This Empi 9520 mount lines up everything perfectly as well.
It does it by lowering the front of the transaxle 1 inch to allow the 61/later nosecone, that is one inch higher exiting the front of the transaxle than a Splitcase transaxle, to enter the factory hole in the tunnel. The WW mount does the exact same thing. There is NO OTHER possible way to allow a 61/later Beetle trans with a Beetle nosecone to be installed in a 60/earlier pan without lowering the front of the trans 1 inch. I'm not saying the WW mount, or the Empi mount does not allow you to mount a 61/later trans with Beetle nosecone into a 60/earlier pan, I'm saying that those who use these mounts are no better than the half wit hacks that destroyed the car to start this thread in the first place. What part of this do you guys not understand about needing to lower the front of the trans? The start of this thread was about how someone hacked of a floorpan after mounting a 61/later trans in a 60 pan using the stock 60 front mount. The whole reason the pan was hacked was to allow the 61/later Beetle nosecone to enter the pan tunnel higher because it came out of the trans higher than the Splitcase trans that was in there. You can clearly see it in the first picture. The Empi/WW mount isn't going to magically lower the hockey stick on the trans, so it has to physically lower the trans for the nosecone to fit in the pan. If you're not going to lower the trans at the cradle as well, the lowering of the front will raise the rear/engine.
jimmy1614, do what you want.... If you have any sort of properly fitting stock muffler/merged header, you'll be jumping up and down on it trying to bend it down because it will be banging off the apron from the engine being raised in the back with the Empi/WW mount. I'm not sure if Mike Herbert still works at Rancho, but he would be one to set the record straight. He has forgotten more than everyone on the samba ever knew combined about building/installing a transaxle in a VW. |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
| 57BLITZ wrote: |
From WW site . . . .
"Description: TRANSMISSION MOUNT PLATE, use this unit to bolt a 1961-1967 transmission into a 1960 and earlier Beetle without changing the nose cone, welding required" http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
This mount gets welded to the torsion bar housing outer tube . . . original mount bracket gets trimmed off first.
NO "Bus Nose-Cone" needed if you weld in this mount
You should also get another "hockey Stick", and shift-rod, and a shift-rod coupler to match your transaxle. |
Not to be rude about it but [email protected] doesn't know what he is talking about. I have done this conversion in a '60 and just as 57BLITZ stated, I welded in the same mount that I linked that WW sells and installed a later tunnel transmission with a standard beetle nose cone. Everything lined up perfectly. |
This Empi 9520 mount lines up everything perfectly as well.
It does it by lowering the front of the transaxle 1 inch to allow the 61/later nosecone, that is one inch higher exiting the front of the transaxle than a split case transaxle, to enter the factory hole in the tunnel. The WW mount does the exact same thing. There is NO OTHER possible way to allow a 61/later Beetle trans with a Beetle nosecone to be installed in a 60/earlier pan without lowering the front of the trans 1 inch. I'm not saying the WW mount, or the Empi mount does not allow you to mount a 61/later trans with Beetle nosecone into a 60/earlier pan, I'm saying that those who use these mounts are no better than the half wit hacks that destroyed the car to start this thread in the first place. What part of this do you guys not understand about needing to lower the front of the trans? The start of this thread was about how someone hacked of a floorpan after mounting a 61/later trans in a 60 pan using the stock front mount. The whole reason the pan was hacked was to allow the Beetle nosecone to enter the pan tunnel higher because it came out of the trans higher than the Splitcase trans that was in there. The Empi/WW mount isn't going to magically lower the hockey stick on the trans, so it has to physically lower the trans for the nosecone to fit in the pan. If you're not going to lower the trans at the cradle as well, the lowering of the front will raise the rear/engine.
jimmy1614, do what you want.... If you have any sort of properly fitting stock muffler/merged header, you'll be jumping up and down on it trying to bend it down because it will be banging off the apron from the engine being raised in the back with the Empi/WW mount. I'm not sure if Mike Herbert still works at Rancho, but he would be one to set the record straight. He has forgotten more than everyone on the samba ever knew combined about building/installing a transaxle in a VW. |
That is a solid mount and will transmit vibration to the car. OK for a race car or street racer but if you want a decent daily driver then you need a rubber mount. Also installing a solid front mount and leaving the rubber rear mounts is just asking to break something.
It will also not work on a '60 because the '60 has the one year only front "saddle style" mount which the OP doesn't have.
Allow me to explain the proper way to mount a later transmission in an early car without cutting or welding.
Buy a bus rubber mount if your car is '53 through '59.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211301265a
If your car is a '60 you need the hard to find front "saddle style" mount.
One for sale here.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1793905
Buy a bus front nosecone, hockystick and reverse switch plug and o ring.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211301205h
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=N138161
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=113301229A
If you want to run some backup lights substitute the plug with a backup light switch.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211941521
You will also need a gasket set so you can replace the nosecone gasket.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111398005A
Once again, for this to work in a '60 you have to have the original front "saddle style" mount.
These are hard to find but if you don't want to weld you will have to have one.
You will have to drill a new gear shift coupling divot on the top side of the hockey stick since the bus hockey stick has the divot on the bottom.
Install the new nosecone and hockey stick and backup light plug or switch on the transmission using a new gasket. If you have the front "saddle style" mount you can install that in your '60 and then install the transmission.
If you have a '53 through '59 you need to install the bus front rubber mount to the pan. You can now install the transmission.
If you don't have a '60 only front "saddle style" mount then the ONLY way to install a later transmission in the car is to weld in the later style front mount bracket.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701173c
You will then be able to install a later style transmission utilizing a beetle front nose cone and rubber mount.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7800
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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let's not confuse people more by calling the front mount a saddle mount as that is the rear mount like this
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Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked  |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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| 60ragtop wrote: |
let's not confuse people more by calling the front mount a saddle mount as that is the rear mount like this
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The '60 only front mount was commonly called a saddle mount because it wraps around the front torsion tube. Number 4 in the picture below.
I went ahead and changed it to "front "saddle style" mount" to help avoid any confusion.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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jimmy1614
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 trans tunnel cut and hammered. Why? |
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Finally got to working on my 60. Got the 60 tranny mount all situated. This seems to be the reasons for all the cutting and hacking. Funny part is they were already in there welding on the og mount. Kind of makes you wonder why the newer style mount wasn't just used in the first place. Wow!
[/img] |
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