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need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

I'm considering adding skylight windows to my '63 panel van. I can section these windows with donor panels, pretty straightforward. I had the idea that its possible to form these windows on the existing roof skin, possibly saving some work and money (donor sections are expensive!). I would have to fabricate the inner structure myself, easy enough.

Here's what I'm looking to accomplish:

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I had 3 ideas:

The first was to create a three part form to "stamp" the shape into the metal, and then cut out the opening. I would need a 3 part form to do this; an upper brace that goes around the window opening on the outer part, an inner form that goes underneath that includes a void for the opening part, and then the stamp part which is the shape of the window which would get pressed into the form. I know I'd need some serious pressure to make this work on the vehicle (I've done it before on my 20 ton press). The only thing i could come up with was having 2 or 4 threaded bolts go through the top and bottom parts to press them together.... I might create a mini test version of this but I'm a little skeptical it would work. I also thought about somehow connecting a bottle jack to the assembly to get the needed force... press-in-situ? maybe?

Idea 2 was to cut out the window opening on the existing panel and use a hand held bead roller with a step die to make the flange and lip. the problem is that I measured the step to be 12mm (about 1/2 inch). The largest die I have (and could find) is 1/4". I would have to machine a 1/2 step die AND build a handheld bead roller that has enough force to make a 1/2" step. I was thinking of making one like a handheld can opener but with really long arms and strong as hell to maintain enough pressure. Otherwise I'd have to settle for a 1/4" step if this method would even work.

Idea 3 was to use a more traditional forming technique which I've done before. I'm only talking about the outer roof skin here. I would need to make the window opening in two sections. First, i would cut out the window opening a littler bigger than it should be from the existing roof skin, put a wooden form underneath and clamp it in. then hammer the lip over the form. Then create a second piece for the window "lip" , form that to be "L" shaped to mate up to the top section and weld them together to complete the outer skin. This seems to me to be a lot of work for 8 windows, but have confidence in the method.

I'm interested on feedback or other ideas. I know others have formed the windows in place so its been done.
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chrisflstf
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

What about making a buck to form the opening?
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

chrisflstf wrote:
What about making a buck to form the opening?



yeah thats what I'm going to try first. I think if i take a block of hardwood, use a router with a wide bit to cut out the window opening in the wood. i then have two sections, the outer ring and the inner block that we'll call the window buck.

I'll cut a hole in the roof metal, slightly smaller than the window opening. Then, put the wood ring underneath, clamp it in and hammer the metal downwards into the bus against the wooden ring. Once thats done, I place in the wooden window buck in the opening and use it to form the window lip around it.

the contour makes it a little challenging, but doable. I'll give it a shot on some scrap metal.
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

test 1: so i attempted to make some forms and use them on some thin gauge duct metal that I had laying around. It didn't go exactly as I hoped but some valuable lessons learned.

I made the inner and outer openings out of cardboard:

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I made a side form out of oak:
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I traced the inner opening onto the ducting metal and then cut it out:
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I soon realized that I needed to have a form on top and bottom, otherwise the metal crinkles up. I didn't take a pic of that, but i clamped the two forms on the top and bottom and went to work. then i used the inner form to make the "lip". heres the results.

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its super sloppy. maybe with some refinement in the form and my technique this method might work. I need to make better forms and get better at the process. I might try it on some 22 gauge steel.
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chrisflstf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

Doesnt someone already make those pieces? Gerson, maybe?
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

chrisflstf wrote:
Doesnt someone already make those pieces? Gerson, maybe?


several vendors sell them. wheres the fun in that?
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Bad Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

For your handheld bead roller, check out Cass Nawrocki's . It's very compact, and powered by an air ratchet and doesn't look hard to build. You should be able to make your panels with a hammer form made from hardwood. Don't cut your corners- stretch them with a hammer and a drift. The first one always looks terrible, but with practice it will come.
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

Bad Bob wrote:
Don't cut your corners- stretch them with a hammer and a drift. The first one always looks terrible, but with practice it will come.


thanks for the tips. I'll give that a shot. on the thin metal it kept splitting when i was hammering. I cut the slits to relieve that issue. hopefully that won't happen when i try thicker metal. otherwise i don't mind welding them up.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

What about applying some heat to the metal in the corners so that you can more easily shape/stretch it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

Try using some 20 ga. or 19 if you can find it. Work it evenly and you can heat the corners if needed. Also, check out "flow forming "with a rivet gun. Much faster than a hammer and a drift.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

i did some experimenting with flow forming, using an air hammer to form metal over some forms i made out of hardwood. I tried on 22ga and 16ga metal (all i had) with steel and polyethylene "tips".

I don't think its possible to form the 22ga more than 1/4" with this method, every time I tried it stretched the metal too thin and tore it. 1/4" i could do with decent results.

I couldn't form the 16ga much at all with the air hammer. I've read that people use air rivet guns with better results.

Once I started getting the hang of it I broke my form Sad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

You can get rid of your shrinking/stretching issues if you make the part out of three pieces but they witll have to be welded together obviously. I think you could do a good enough bendjob with your hands using this method.
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

I haven't had any luck with form flowing or pressing the "stamping" to the desired depth of 12mm. The metal tears, even on 16ga sheet metal. I might have to retool my punches to be more rounded.

heres some examples:

16ga sheet, pressed to 12mm
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backside
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22ga sheet pressed to 12mm
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I didn't put anything on top so the metal wrinkled, i figured it would. i was just testing the depth.

I know i can weld two pieces together to make this work, i was really just exploring the possibilities of doing it in one shot, and possibly forming it on the existing sheet metal. The next test is to cut the inner hole first and form the window opening by hand...the old fashioned way.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:37 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

Check this post, he makes hammer forms and uses caulking tools to shape the metal into the hammer form. Also check out allmetalshaping.com for info on caulking tools.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392073


themetalsurgeon wrote:
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ok from the top,cutting excess material out
position hammerform jig and sandwich the metal using
clamping plate on the outside.This helps keep the form
of the material.

Using jig chasers (hand made tools from alumininium,
nylon,wood,steel,titanium.look like sculptures tools
with different shaped ends for different applications)
chase back the material into the definition of the jig.

dress (hammer) the chased areas with a planishing
hammer to clean and smooth.

trim flange to 8mm

check profiles with templates.

offer inner close out panel ,position and klico in
position.

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edgood1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: need ideas: forming vs rolling window opening Reply with quote

thanks. thats where my inspiration came from. That guy is incredible. he has a lifetime of experience. I'm still in the beginner phase of this...but i'm practicing and getting better with different techniques.
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