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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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It always starts out with something, that then leads to something else:
Doing a simple update of the front beam bump stops, lead to this discovery:
So, that meant pulling the beam out which lead to more discoveries:
Um, that's an odd upper shock bolt arrangement:
and this is bad news:
So two additional beams were sourced, disassembled, and using the best parts, every thing was cleaned, repainted, restored:
(using a handy tool to reconnect the refurbished spindles)
The beam was reinstalled with new ball joints, new tie rod ends, new wheel bearings.
So, at the point of connecting the steering shaft to the steering gear; the coupling disc was definitely deformed. Everything does not line up.
In these pictures I've pulled the steering column assembly apart and verified that the steering column shaft is not bent.
I'm looking for advice on where to go from here to solve this issue. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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See if the steering box can be loosened and moved to the left. If not, loosen the whole beam and see if you can move it to the left. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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Some (late?) Type 3 cars have an eccentric mount just rearward of the bulkhead (in the passenger compartment). You can change the angle of the upper shaft by loosening it and rotating the collar. Bentley has a photo. |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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There are two different styles of rubber collars - one of which is designed to tweak the angle/"caster" of the front beam. When you use two different collars, it'll set the beam off at an angle and you'll drive yourself nuts trying to fix it.
The old style are the same thickness from top to bottom, looking at the side profile.
The new style are thicker at the bottom and thinner at the top, again, looking at the side profile. |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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This is a 1966 T34, so it doesn't have the eccentric like the later model T3s have. I can understand why VW added it. The steering column is very fixed as to it's location with regard to the dashboard and hole through the firewall.
The steering box is moved as far left in the beam notch as is allowed. I'll work on loosening the whole beam tomorrow to see if the beam can be shifted and will check the collars in that process. I had cleaned & treated the existing collars but didn't really inspect or contrast them to others I have in the "parts to be cleaned box".
What issues would be created by using the later collars? I.E. it will change the caster, but is that ok on this 66 pan?
FYI that the steering coupling disc that was in the car was very cracked and worn. So this issue was probably in play from the previous owners & original restoration back in the early 90s. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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vwsquare2 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2016 Posts: 104 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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I've been following posts in TheSamba for several months so I'm sorry to hijack this one but I have a question. Where did you source the additional beams from? I have seen several places to get used beams and I know there are no new ones being made so I wanted to hear where you got these from so I know of at least one decent source someone has used.
I have a 1973 Squareback I bought on eBay in December and while the body likes great in pictures and the seller said it was in good shape ("not a project car"), underneath is a mess as you can see from these pictures.
After this, I'll start a new thread. Thanks!
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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How I came to have extra beams would be a whole nother thread. Titled "The Waltz of the Beams". I've gone through 7 junked type 3s; and 1 running T34. Acquiring parts to build (hopefully) 3 running vehicles.
But I do know of pretty much every VW salvage yard in NorthEast Oklahoma and what inventory of parts, such as beams, is available to me. I would likely pull 3 beams from salvage to make sure I got enough good parts to make one.
Looking at your pictures, your beam has the typical rusting off bump stops. I'd suggest a beam from a dry desert climate. (like 3 of the junked cars which I acquired from west Texas). But there are others here on TheSamba that might know a source closer to you. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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OKType3Tim wrote: |
This is a 1966 T34, so it doesn't have the eccentric like the later model T3s have. I can understand why VW added it. The steering column is very fixed as to it's location with regard to the dashboard and hole through the firewall. |
I am not familiar with earlies other than from repair manuals. Looking at the bracket that holds the column to the dash, are there oval holes in the bracket that would allow for some left-right movement, which would have an opposite effect at the coupler end, perhaps letting them align better? |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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There are oval holes that allow front and back adjustment, to set the clearance between the turn signal housing and the steering wheel.
I didn't get to the test of pulling the beam loose yet. (life interfered, as we have all experienced.) Tomorrow (Thursday) (I hope). _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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I'll know more tomorrow, but I think I am on to something. When I mentioned to one of my local VW friends that I was using a "new" TRW steering box; he mumbled something to the effect that I wasn't going to be happy. I've removed the new TRW steering box in prep of getting to the rubber collars. Close examination shows that it might be tight against the upper tube of the beam. And the connecting shaft doesn't seem to be quite square with the housing and mounting surfaces. I.E. the build quality doesn't match an original VW housing.
(I'll get some pictures tomorrow.)
This ring any bells for anyone else? _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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OKType3Tim wrote: |
I'll know more tomorrow, but I think I am on to something. When I mentioned to one of my local VW friends that I was using a "new" TRW steering box; he mumbled something to the effect that I wasn't going to be happy. I've removed the new TRW steering box in prep of getting to the rubber collars. Close examination shows that it might be tight against the upper tube of the beam. And the connecting shaft doesn't seem to be quite square with the housing and mounting surfaces. I.E. the build quality doesn't match an original VW housing.
(I'll get some pictures tomorrow.)
This ring any bells for anyone else? |
Frankly, nothing surprises me with the utter shit VW replacement parts we get these days. Do you have an OEM box laying around? Bolt it up and see. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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To the OP:
Looking at your firewall, it's a lot different than my '67.
I don't see the two cowl drain holes, and the column exit 'boss' looks different.
What with the boogery looking stuff around the hole there,
And some of the other creative mods to your beam,
Could it be that the firewall was tampered with, and the hole (or something else) is now in the wrong location?
Stranger things have happened for sure..
Nice work on the beam. I dig your compression tool. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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Clatter wrote: |
To the OP:
Looking at your firewall, it's a lot different than my '67.
I don't see the two cowl drain holes, and the column exit 'boss' looks different.
What with the boogery looking stuff around the hole there,
And some of the other creative mods to your beam,
Could it be that the firewall was tampered with, and the hole (or something else) is now in the wrong location?
Stranger things have happened for sure..
Nice work on the beam. I dig your compression tool. |
The reason it looks different Steve, is because it's a type 34. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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As TRAM suggested, I removed the "New" steering box and bolted on a used VW unit. Yep, that looks a lot better. I'm still going to reset the beam on the frame head to make sure I have the beam as far to the driver's side as it will correctly go. I'll also re-examine the rubber collars and select an installation set that provide me the most benefit.
This prompted me to clean up the rubber collars I had in the "parts to be cleaned" box. SO, I have some other candidates, both early and late that I could use. More pictures on that later.
Examination of the steering box revealed the following manufacturing problem(s):
Here is a picture of three steering boxes. On the left is an original VW housing. In the middle is a new aftermarket unit. On the right is the new aftermarket unit that I was attempting to install.
Looking at the original VW housing, you can see that there is a small "step"
where the mounting surface would contact the beam.
On the steering box in the middle of the set, you can see that same "step".
On the steering box that I was trying to use, NO STEP!
So this steering box will clamp down onto the beam at a different angle than the others. Now lets look at another aspect; the worm shaft that connects to the steering column. In the middle steering box, that I was not using, you see alignment between the orientation/direction of the worm shaft and the housing:
On the steering box that I was trying to use, the alignment is off:
So basically, at the factory this housing was not located in the machining fixture properly, and the mounting saddle and the worm shaft hole were machined incorrectly.
The unit I was trying to use is supposedly a TRW unit, which I picked up years ago; either at a swap meet or on eBay. So...my loss. I discussed this issue at the local VW parts store. He knows that there were counterfeit TRW units several years ago. And he feels certain that there are instances that if the "price" just isn't right (to low); you should suspect that the unit is either counterfeit, or someone got it out of the "trashed-didn't meet quality check" bin at the factory and moved it along to their own benefit.
But, at least I (and now you), know of a couple things to look for when you go to purchase a steering box.
SO....I need a steering box. That leads to cleaning up the messy pile of steering boxes I have accumulated in an attempt to rebuild a working VW unit.
And so that process is underway. I'll post that exercise in a different thread.
More updates to come as I get the beam remounted. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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I wouldn't be afraid to try putting a proper groove in that box casting to get it to set right, FWIW.
Bet you that mold was pretty rough...
(Not that it would solve your input-shaft-alignment problem - good eye there)
They make burrs for your die-grinder that whittle away cast iron pretty easily.
Again, FWIW.
Looks like you're on the right track with the rebuild process.
Bet you those OG German boxes are full of beautiful, use-able guts.
You'll have a few working right proper in no time.
These aren't booster engines for the space shuttle after all..
What's all that lumpy stuff around the opening for your steering column, anyway?
It's not weld, is it? _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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The lumpy stuff is seam sealer under several layers of paint. The guy who did the original restoration back in '93 says that he didn't have to weld there, nor did he have to do any welding on the frame head.
Also, steering box rebuild thread (along with some others doing the same) is at:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658834 _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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OKType3Tim Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2011 Posts: 279 Location: Northeast Oklahoma
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Miss Molly Beam Replacement-Steering Column Alignment Problem |
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OK. The beam was removed to check the collars and to make sure that the beam was seated/installed properly. Here are the collars that I was using. They are the correct collars for a '66 chassis. The only fault I can find with them is that the lowers are a mismatched set. I.E. they are not a set made at the same time by the same manufacturer. I say that since they have different locations on the flange for where the VW logo and part number are located. It is very very subtle, but there is a variation in the thickness of the flanges on the lower collars.
Here they are laid out as looking from the front of the car:
And then flipped to show them from the inside of the beam looking out.
Just to be sure, I used a slightly better set I have for the reinstall, that have matching number stamps:
In the reinstall, I verified that the positioning hole in the beam and in the brackets was centered over the center posts on the frame head.
So I am confident that the beam is centered on the frame head.
In addition I used a steel ruler, held horizontally, to measure from the firewall to the center seam of the beam. Measurement from the drivers side to the passenger side were identical.
So it is back to rebuilding the steering boxes. _________________ '69 Squareback restoration
'69 Fastback restoration
'66 Type34 |
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