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'71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Hello all! I'm at a loss with my '71 fuel injected Sqaureback. Had it nearly a year now and he's been nothing but hard work!
The engine had a nasty knock when it first got to me and ran rough, kept cutting out. Gave it a good service and it got worse, so dropped it out and split it open to find several worn or buggered parts. I'm a mechanic by trade so thought I'll just rebuild it but found a shop that could do it at a reasonable cost and it came back to me a month or two ago and I've finally got it back in!
So theres the history of old rattler in my hands but now we cant get the engine to fire up! It turns over and rarely coughs or splutters, once it did spit out a flame ball but had leaking injectors so stopped! Injectors now not leaking, replaced with second hand ones but no firing
I'm going to try put up some pics of my dizzy and drive gear to hopefully help? I've a haynes manual and its timing is well out compared to what that says, the notch in the dizzy rim is in about 7 o'clock position rather than 5 and my drive gear is more straight across than at a 60 degree angle? My engine code is U0480 or as much as I can remember! Can get the rest tomorrow if you guys need it?
I just want to check the timing is correct before we start running off hunting for other problems, other expensive and hard to find problems!
Thank you in advance Zoe
https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8850/2828 ... aed8_k.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7677/2808 ... 3fcb_k.jpg
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Hello all! I'm at a loss with my '71 fuel injected Sqaureback. Had it nearly a year now and he's been nothing but hard work!
The engine had a nasty knock when it first got to me and ran rough, kept cutting out. Gave it a good service and it got worse, so dropped it out and split it open to find several worn or buggered parts. I'm a mechanic by trade so thought I'll just rebuild it but found a shop that could do it at a reasonable cost and it came back to me a month or two ago and I've finally got it back in!
So theres the history of old rattler in my hands but now we cant get the engine to fire up! It turns over and rarely coughs or splutters, once it did spit out a flame ball but had leaking injectors so stopped! Injectors now not leaking, replaced with second hand ones but no firing
I'm going to try put up some pics of my dizzy and drive gear to hopefully help? I've a haynes manual and its timing is well out compared to what that says, the notch in the dizzy rim is in about 7 o'clock position rather than 5 and my drive gear is more straight across than at a 60 degree angle? My engine code is U0480 or as much as I can remember! Can get the rest tomorrow if you guys need it?
I just want to check the timing is correct before we start running off hunting for other problems, other expensive and hard to find problems!
Thank you in advance Zoe
https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8850/2828 ... aed8_k.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7677/2808 ... 3fcb_k.jpg


The timing should be straight up or "0" degress @TDC. It almost sounds like the "engine builder" dropped the distributor drive in like a bug (common), not realizing that it needs to be correct. And yes, it needs to be correct, or you can't set it correctly, due to the vac can hitting the generator or the AAR valve (most times it's the generator). Also keep in mind that the distributor has I think 3 degrees of retard built into #3 position, and that the trigger points are in the distributor, so any changes in position of the distributor, also affect the FI timing.
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply!
I'm not sure if my pics are working but my drive goes across as in adjacent to the join in the block. This does mean my dizzy doesnt have enough movement to line up the notch and roter arm for tdc properly.
So does this mean i need to remove my drive gear?
Thanks again
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

https://www.flickr.com/photos/145107586@N05/28286906121/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/145107586@N05/28083104520/in/dateposted-public/
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Thanks for the reply!
I'm not sure if my pics are working but my drive goes across as in adjacent to the join in the block. This does mean my dizzy doesnt have enough movement to line up the notch and roter arm for tdc properly.
So does this mean i need to remove my drive gear?
Thanks again


No, your pics aren't working.
If you really look at the picture in Bentley, they show the thin part of the drive "offset" to the left side, with it running on an angle from the case seam mounting block to the edge of the tin, meaning the 60* angle is from the rear of the engine, going out and left from the case seam.
Yes, I do think you need to re-index the drive, as it sounds like you might be a tooth or so off.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Tram wrote:
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Bugger!
Is it a difficult job? Any tips?
Thanks
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well hopefully these pics work!
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Has anyone got a pic of which way my drive gear should be?
Thanks
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Has anyone got a pic of which way my drive gear should be?
Thanks


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zoboe
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Your a legend! Thank you so much Very Happy
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Donnie strickland
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

You'll need a distributor drive puller, which looks like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You put it down the hole, tighten the T handle, then pull up.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: '71 Sqaureback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

...being careful to not loose the spring or washers.
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zoboe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Ok, so this morning I've been on the phone to the engine people and the guy says it should still run as long as I switch the plug leads round to match? but when trying to get it going I'm pretty sure we had it as close as we could but the vacuum jobby on the side prevented us getting the dizzy to turn round any further?
I'm now pretty sure the drive needs to come out as I'd prefer the engine to be right from the start seeing as it's been 'rebuilt'. Am I that likely to drop these washers as I've read on the Internet?! Are there any techniques or tips when doing those job?
Thanks guys
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Ok, so this morning I've been on the phone to the engine people and the guy says it should still run as long as I switch the plug leads round to match? but when trying to get it going I'm pretty sure we had it as close as we could but the vacuum jobby on the side prevented us getting the dizzy to turn round any further?
I'm now pretty sure the drive needs to come out as I'd prefer the engine to be right from the start seeing as it's been 'rebuilt'. Am I that likely to drop these washers as I've read on the Internet?! Are there any techniques or tips when doing those job?
Thanks guys


Just be sure, after you pull the drive, that you look down the hole with a flashlight and be sure that the washers are centered over the hole before you put the drive back in.

They're coated in oil; they'll stick to the engine case when you pull the shaft.

Be sure you have cylinder 1 at top dead center when you do this. Don't just go by the timing marks on the pulley, as they will be at TDC twice, for #1 and #3. Remove the plug from #1 and put in a straw or something to ensure the piston is at TDC.
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Last edited by Donnie strickland on Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Ok, so this morning I've been on the phone to the engine people and the guy says it should still run as long as I switch the plug leads round to match? but when trying to get it going I'm pretty sure we had it as close as we could but the vacuum jobby on the side prevented us getting the dizzy to turn round any further?
I'm now pretty sure the drive needs to come out as I'd prefer the engine to be right from the start seeing as it's been 'rebuilt'. Am I that likely to drop these washers as I've read on the Internet?! Are there any techniques or tips when doing those job?
Thanks guys



No...no....no...no....who are these losers working on your engine?

Understand this.....as mentioned earlier. Fuel injection timing is critical with D-jet.

Why?....because its already difficult. Your injectors fire in pairs. This means that already one injector fires when a valve is closed....one fires when a valve only has a short amount of open time left...and two fire with at least within the valve open cycle.

Its not perfect....at idle and low rpm....but Bosch and VW worked really hard to get this timing in its best overall running compromise......IN RELATION TO VALVE OPENING POINTS.....WHICH MEANS ITS TIED TO CAMSHAFT POSITION.

This means.....since injection timing is critically tied to camshaft position......AND CAMSHAFT POSITION IS LOCKED TO THE CRANK BY A GEAR......and cannot be changed....

It is critical that the ignition timing is dead on......because the injection timing trigger points move directly with the distributor.
This changes its relationship.....this changes the injection timing relationship with the valve opening points.. ....and that cannot be fixed.

You dont get to move cam position....and just moving,spark plug,wires.....ONLY FIXES IGNITION TIMING....NOT INJECTION TIMING.

The idiots working on your car have no idea how the system works.

And....unlike L-jet injection.....more than about 5-10° of injection timing movement at the distributor.....causes major changes to vacuum signature because it changes the way the fuel atomizes and hence the way the engine runs.
This change to the vacuum signature causes huge spikiness at the MPS reading...causing big swings in injector pulse width.....which causes wild oscillation to fuel pressure....which causes worse running... and on...and on.

You can see this with the fuel pressure gauge and vaccum gauge. Fix your distributor drive.
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Thanks Donnie, I now feel a bit more confident about sorting the drive out Smile
And thanks Ray, that's pretty much what I was thinking in my head! The guy on the phone was very adamant he was right and no amount of me asking why it wasn't set right in the first place was gonna change his mind or attitude, will not be using them again! No matter, thanks for help Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

zoboe wrote:
Thanks Donnie, I now feel a bit more confident about sorting the drive out Smile
And thanks Ray, that's pretty much what I was thinking in my head! The guy on the phone was very adamant he was right and no amount of me asking why it wasn't set right in the first place was gonna change his mind or attitude, will not be using them again! No matter, thanks for help Very Happy


You know.....this is the way Iook at it. If all else was done right. If they are actually....in all other mechanical items that are air cooled VW related......good mechanics.......and if they would sit still for the explaination of the injection timing requirement......mean they are actually willing to learn something........

......they would be worth keeping as a mechanic.

There could be any number of other small items wrong on the engine.....wires....grounds....vacuum leaks...etc.

But without first removing and re-installing the distributor drive factory correct.....then adjusting the valves spot on....then setting the injection timing spot on to factory...hence setting the injection timing to factory at the same time.........many of these other smaller but stacked up problems. would be masked and hard to find. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

I bet that mechanic recommends you switch to carbs soon. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Ok guys, I've got a puller tool now and will hopefully have chance to give it a go this weekend. Fingers crossed I don't drop anything and it all goes smoothly!
If it's running by the weekend I'll be finding an email address for this 'engine company' and be sending them a copy of this thread!
Thanks again so much everyone for your help Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: '71 Squareback Fuel Injection Timing Reply with quote

Have a magnet handy to grab any washers or springs that don't cooperate during your surgery.
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