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Does this sound like a sticky solenoid?
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Sharp64 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

My bug will go weeks without issues and then every once in awhile, it just won't turn over. Put the key in and turn it, lights come on and I hear a single click and nothing. Sometimes trying again will get it to turn over. Other times I have to swap out a spare ignition that I keep in the glove box. And even other times rocking the car back and forth while in gear seems to free something up. Today I had to resort to sliding under the car, spinning the starter using the pliers crossing the terminals trick and bam the ignition will turn over. This is a last resort if none of the prior things works. I will add that sometimes I have jumped it as well to get it to turn over. After starting up it usually will crank fine after. Its just after sitting for a day or two that it typically happens and its not even always. New battery, all terminals have been cleaned/greased, getting plenty of juice. It is 6v.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

It sounds like you may have a worn starter bushing. The excessive play allows the solenoid plunger to become cocked and it can bind. Rocking the car in gear will free it up again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Luft kühl wrote:
It sounds like you may have a worn starter bushing. The excessive play allows the solenoid plunger to become cocked and it can bind. Rocking the car in gear will free it up again.


Cool. Something to consider. I doubt the solenoid has ever been rebuilt, so probably needs it anyway, but a bushing is something I can add to my parts list and have on hand for when I pull the starter.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Solenoid, for sure. If you get a replacement starter, they usually come with a new bushing.unless you have some kind of exotic "stuck a 12 volt starter in a six volt transaxle" bushing
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

flyboy161 wrote:
Solenoid, for sure. If you get a replacement starter, they usually come with a new bushing.unless you have some kind of exotic "stuck a 12 volt starter in a six volt transaxle" bushing

I was going to use the solenoid rebuild thread and try and rebuild it. Essentially the cost of my time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Still haven't had time to put the car up and pull the starter, but had some further issues that make me wonder if it's not possibly a ground issue? Car wouldn't start the other day. I opened the trunk, swapped ignitions and this did not help. As a quick test to make sure there was power to the ignition I tapped two of the wires together to see if I could "Hotwire" it to turn over. Got spark from touching two of the wires but car didn't turn over. Reconnected wires, got into the car and for giggles put the key in and tried it and the car turns over and starts. Over the course of a few days, I try starting the car and each time it cranks over with no issues. Fast forward to this past Friday and took the car out for a quick spin. Cranks up on the first hit and runs like a champ. Unfortunately I got caught in the rain. Turned wipers and headlights on and had running for probably 10 minutes. Made it to my in laws, stopped for a few minutes and when I came back out, nada. Dash lights came on initially, but noticed after a couple of tries that the white light on the right went dead. Push start the car, get home, turn it off and try it again and it cranks straight back up. While I have cleaned the terminals in the ignition system (battery, starter, gen, fuse box, etc) I was not able to get the trans strap loose on one end so only cleaned one end of it and I haven't gotten to the light switch because I was waiting for the time to pull the wipers, radio etc. I'm starting to lean towards really needing to get the ground strap loose and cleaned and getting the light switch out and inspected. I will say, I get a fair amount of dimming with the light on and the engine is at idle. Rev and they brighten quite a bit. All of my terminals at the headlight and fuses are clean and my headlight grounds are good.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

you can eliminate the bad starter bushing thing just get a started for a type 3 automatic (no bushing needed it is a self supporting starter I got one from napa for around 40.00
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
you can eliminate the bad starter bushing thing just get a started for a type 3 automatic (no bushing needed it is a self supporting starter I got one from napa for around 40.00


I don't believe the actual starter is bad to be honest. Maybe a sticky solenoid, but the starter spins freely every time I cross the two posts with a screwdriver. How does one determine if the bushings are bad? I have a local store so getting new ones shouldn't be a hassle.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Sometimes they just need to spend 24 hours on the trickle charger and they will go weeks without starting problems after that. Yes Pull the solenoid too. Be sure to use a soldering Iron to unsolder the coil wires before removing the solenoid's front. You will be amazed at how bad and rusted up it is in there. Some water repellent silicone lube grease or even oil will do but also re-seal it with RTV or something like it. Solder the 4 solenoid wires back and it should be good. Be sure and test it before re-installing.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Sometimes they just need to spend 24 hours on the trickle charger and they will go weeks without starting problems after that. Yes Pull the solenoid too. Be sure to use a soldering Iron to unsolder the coil wires before removing the solenoid's front. You will be amazed at how bad and rusted up it is in there. Some water repellent silicone lube grease or even oil will do but also re-seal it with RTV or something like it. Solder the 4 solenoid wires back and it should be good. Be sure and test it before re-installing.


But isn't it odd for it to start up without a hassle, drive for 5-10 minutes and then not want to turn over again after sitting for 20-30 minutes? I did test the battery before while it was running and the voltage does go up to 7 volts or higher as the engine revs so the generator is working. I also haven't had to jump it in months. I even forgot and left the parking lights on the other day for 20-30 minutes, came out and it still started. That's the puzzling part, the inconsistency.


Last edited by Sharp64 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Ok so Yes yours is a 6 volt generator then. It's been a while since I've played with 6 volt charging systems.

Yes hot the starter may be more likely to fail. When the solenoid is hotter from the engine heat that is when the problem first shows up. It may be because the iron core of the solenoid does not become as magnetized when hot. Or it could be the contactor in the solenoid isn't working as quite right and both solenoid coils don't get power at just the right time. As I recall they have one solenoid coil in series with the starter motor to get the gear spinning and there is a short delay before the both solenoid coils go to full voltage. There is a cooper plate in them that is the contactor and it may need a good cleaning or wire brushing or something like that to clear up the problem.
Also there are other things like the ignition switch, the battery water level, the ground cables, the 6 volt positive battery cables. Connections, even a poor connection at the voltage regulator or the regulator itself is going bad. When is the last time you changed the generator brushes?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Sorry, yes its a 6v with a generator. I went through all of the connections last year that I could get to. The only ones as mentioned that I could not get clean were one end of the ground strap and the terminals on the light and windshield wiper. I think pretty much every other terminal has been cleaned. I know both on the starter, all the spade connectors at the starter, battery + and -, one end of ground, all the ones in the engine compartment, lights etc.

I get what you're saying on why it would do that when hot, but it does it sometimes when its cold as well.. To be honest, its done it much more often when cold than hot. And I would say it could be because of the wiper or light usage, but there are times, it is the middle of the day and I haven't run anything. I also do have an extra ignition switch that I have switched in and out before. I would almost think if it was a bad switch, wouldn't the lights on the dash not come on? And wouldn't it either work or not? Not intermittently? If it was consistently one or the other I would get it, but its not. That's whats driving me nuts.

As for the brushes on the genny, no I haven't changed them, but also if they are charging the battery shouldn't that mean they are fine? I'll have to research that more.

I guess my next game plan is to work on getting the one end of the ground strap off and cleaned. Removing the starter, replace the bushings and clean the solenoid. I'll take voltage readings before and after I guess and see if I see anything jump or spike? If this doesn't fix it, I plan on taking the wipers off and replacing some grommets so that will allow me access to the light switch to inspect it and see if maybe that is somehow losing me some power? I do think I remember seeing a wire up in there once that didn't look very good. Maybe its causing issues?

Thanks for the help.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Our bus 12volts generator at the time was doing that exact kine of intermittence so I had the starter rebuilt by a local electrical shop and it worked fine for 5 years then I think the coast salt air got to it and the problem came back so I just wound up with an Auto Trans starter. I don't think you can do that though. It may have been that bushing though. It's been fine ever since I rebuilt the solenoid last time the Auto Trans Starter failed which was about 3 months after I bought it. It being a manufactured by Bosch rusty inside and without anything to keep the water out. But the Bosch remanufactured ones do have 2 year warranty. If you don't mind he wait and the shiping cost.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

I Had very similar issues once with my 65 that ended up being the bushing. I thought it was a ground issue at first too. car would pop start and would sometimes crank fine. I checked all the grounds and cleaned everything well and it didn't change. took the starter out and replaced the bushing and i've been fine since. My car is a 12v starter with a 6v bell housing though.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Based on what I'm seeing, replacing the starter looks like a two man job due to the way the top bolt is fastened. Any hacks for doing this solo? I have a somewhat eager 12 year old that can hold a wrench but she's at school most days when I tend to fiddle around with the car.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
Based on what I'm seeing, replacing the starter looks like a two man job due to the way the top bolt is fastened. Any hacks for doing this solo? I have a somewhat eager 12 year old that can hold a wrench but she's at school most days when I tend to fiddle around with the car.


There is one stud and nut holding it on and one large bolt with a special head that looks like a "D". It locks the bolt in place so it can't spin. If someone has used a regular bolt than get a helper or be creative and wedge a box end wrench on the nut in the engine compartment or something.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Ok. From what I read/saw I thought the OG starter had the regular bolt but on later replacements the D bolt was added? I really need to just get up under and see what I'm looking at.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Even if it is a regular bolt up top, you can do it alone. I put a 17mm box end wrench on the bolt head under the car. If I am loosening I try and get it as close to the floor of the package tray as possible. Then I crawl out and take another 17mm and slowly start removing the nut. If you are careful the wrench on the bolt head will turn slightly until it contacts the floor and it stays there until the nut is finger loose. Slow gentle movements are the key, not sharp jerking tugs. Otherwise the wrench underneath keeps falling off. If it's a d-bolt it's easy.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

I'm not sure if you have O'reilly auto parts in Florida. Mine was doing the same, intermittent starting woes. I bought this http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/OAT0/R612...rd=starter and problems were solved. $45 bucks with the core and a lifetime guarantee. I have bought two of these and have had no issues. Both of mine were rebuilt Bosch and came with new bushing. Casey
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Does this sound like a sticky solenoid? Reply with quote

Swung by and picked up a starter bushing from the local VW shop to have one on hand. Car started multiple times last week with zero issues. Went out today to crank it and nothing. I popped the trunk and was poking around when I had an idea to make sure it wasn't either of the ignition switches I had and figured I would try to hot wire it. I looked up the procedure, then connected 15 to 30 with some alligator clips and used a piece of wire to cross this connection with 50 for a moment to turn over the starter. Nada. Caused a nice little spark but nothing on the starter end. Am I correct in that this further points to a bad starter/solenoid?

I know there have been multiple suggestions to just buy a new starter but I am seriously working on a limited budget right now, so trying the least expensive option. This isn't my main transpo.
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