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FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable?
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coach macinnis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Hi Folks. This may be sort of a dumb question, but I'm getting ready to upgrade from a single-circuit to dual-circuit MC in my notch project (64 body on 67 chassis, originally with stock single-circuit MC) and have decided to replace all brake lines and rebuild my calipers and brake cylinders at the same time.

I have ATE front disc calipers.

I have access to a pair of FAG rebuild kits that go by the same part number (311698471). Can I use them? Sine they use the same part #, I assume so... Can anyone confirm this or must I go with ATE kits?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

coach macinnis wrote:
Hi Folks. This may be sort of a dumb question, but I'm getting ready to upgrade from a single-circuit to dual-circuit MC in my notch project (64 body on 67 chassis, originally with stock single-circuit MC) and have decided to replace all brake lines and rebuild my calipers and brake cylinders at the same time.

I have ATE front disc calipers.

I have access to a pair of FAG rebuild kits that go by the same part number (311698471). Can I use them? Sine they use the same part #, I assume so... Can anyone confirm this or must I go with ATE kits?


You will be just fine with either kit in the calipers. I have actually seen some original ATE calipers...known to not have been swapped or rebuilt.... that came with FAG seals...probably a vendor outsource thing.

The FAG seals are a perfect fit. Be sure to get the caliper half seals. If your kit did not come with them you an buy them singularly at Auto Atlanta or PMB Performance.

When rebuilding Master cylinders......many years ago there were some very fine fit differences of the outre primary circuit piston seal that made it better to run ATE kits with ATE cylinders and FAG kits with FAG cylinders.
Shaffer universal kits covered this no problem . Ray
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coach macinnis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Thanks raygreenwood, that's helpful. But what are these caliper half seals you mention? I don't think I know what/where they are...

Are you referring to the internal seals found only when splitting the caliper halves? From what I've read, I shouldn't split them and I don't plan to...I'm just planning to remove the pistons, clean/polish everything up and reassemble with the new piston seals.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

coach macinnis wrote:
Thanks raygreenwood, that's helpful. But what are these caliper half seals you mention? I don't think I know what/where they are...

Are you referring to the internal seals found only when splitting the caliper halves? From what I've read, I shouldn't split them and I don't plan to...I'm just planning to remove the pistons, clean/polish everything up and reassemble with the new piston seals.


Yes.....you absolutely should split them. They do not last forever anyone that tells you that has no idea what kind of rubber they are or what the properties are.

I am so tired of all of the unknowledgable information parrots or fear mongers with regard to these parts.

Many say not to split the calipers. ...simply because they have not worked hard enough to get the parts and most of the .....bought at cheap or convenient places.....kits....do not have these seals.

If you split the calipers....and do not replace these seals....there is 50/50 chance they will leak.
Do you know why?

Because the EPDM rubber ages with heat, pressure and exposure to fluid. When you split the caliper....they shrink about 5-10% within hours with exposure to air.

Guess what.....if your car or the caliper has been sitting any length of time with air in the system.....they can shrink and leak anyway. They are 40 freakin years old.....replace them!

Plus....you cannot clean the calipers properly or even lap them or inspect them properly without disassembling them.

At this very moment I am working on a pictorial how to for rebuilding these calipers. It should be posted in the 411/412 forum by tomorrow night.

It includes links for where to buy the caliper half seals....by themselves......or get full factory kits that include them. The seals themselves will run you about $10-12 for all four plus shipping.
Ray
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coach macinnis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

I look forward to that tutorial--the timing couldn't be better!
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daos
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

was going to rebuild mine, turns out they were toast.. cylinders are rusted tight.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

daos wrote:
was going to rebuild mine, turns out they were toast.. cylinders are rusted tight.


No.....that does not mean they are toast.

Bear in mind that really only two things must be in excellent shape to rebuild and have proper operation.

1. The seal groove in the cylinder where the seal resides cannot have serious rust pits that span from the inside to outside.....through the groove

2. The piston cannot have major gouging or rust lines. Many small pits are ok.

The pistons are either nickel plated or nickel chrome plated. It is VERY rust resistant.
Its the cylinder walls that are bare cast iron and rust.....and the cylinder walls are not that important.
They can have quite a bit of roughness and not affect the quidance of the piston which is all they are really there for.
The sealing effect itself.....its between seal andcpiston and seal and groove.

So before you say its shot.....soak it well in penetrating oil inside and out.....and remember if you use a penetrating oil....it ruins the caliper half o-ring,seals so you must reppace them for sure.
Let them soak....then use heat. In a real pinch you csn take some mild phosphoric acid based cleaner like CLR....and put it around the periphery of the piston to disolve rust...and flush some through the caliper.

But when you come to this stage....the pistons MUST come out. You cannot let the pistons sit for days with phosphoric acid on them.

So.....penetrating oil....heat.....phosphoric acid.....then connect a 10mm grease gun hose to the fluid inlet.....and with a grease gun....pump the calipers full with a block of wood between pistons. A grease gun can develop thousands of pounds of pressure. It WILL remove the pistons.

Then post pictures of the seal groove and pistons. Ray
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daos
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

i'm still hoping i can revive them, already have rebuild kits for both.

not tried acid, that's an interesting possibility. i have soaked them (maybe not enough) in penetrating oil, and tried moving them with compressed air, to no avail. will give them another go when i can and see what happens.

thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

daos wrote:
i'm still hoping i can revive them, already have rebuild kits for both.

not tried acid, that's an interesting possibility. i have soaked them (maybe not enough) in penetrating oil, and tried moving them with compressed air, to no avail. will give them another go when i can and see what happens.

thanks for the advice, much appreciated.


Understand.....that strong acid like muriatic acid (hydrochloric) is ideal for DISSOLVING RUST.....but that will also remove the plating from the pistons.

Strong phosphoric acid like Jasco and a few other rust converter treatments are not as hard on the plating but its hard to predict.

Ospho brand phosphoric acid dip......dilted about 50% with water will slowly dissolve some of the rust.

Really the safest bet is penetrating oil...heat.....vibration.....and then use the grease gun method. The grease gun will build 20-30X more pressure than compressed air can and it WILL remove the pistons. Ray
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daos
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

so here they are in all their glory. the grease did it in the end, now just need to flush it all out, should be fun..

i've posted pics of the worst offender, with heavy pitting around the top of the piston, and minor damage to the bore. the rest will polish up nicely, although the tops of the bores where the outer seals locate are not in great shape.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the rest look more or less like this, so no problems there:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the question is will that one bad piston stand up to a rebuild, or is it done.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Ok....you need to measure with the depth probe on a caliper.....how far the bottom of the cylinder is from the TOP of the the seal groove in the cylinder.

Then measure the distance from the bottom of the piston to the sharp edge of that rust line on the rough piston.

I have a good idea.....that the rust line is on the OUTSIDE side of the seal groove. It comes from the outer dust boot seal failing and water with mud staying in the area above and outside of the seal groove against the piston.

If this is correct.....that piston should be good. Look in my link about rebuilding calipers. In the case of your pistons.....you might do well to soak them in a very light acid. This is one case where vinegar would be worthwhile. Find the strongest vinegar you can and soak overnight or longer after adding fresh vinegar.

I want to avoid using the stronger acids i used in my caliper rebuild.....on the pistons.....because it will remove the plating. Use steel wool and BRASS brushes to get the crust off of the parts. Then use 2000 grit wet/dry paper to polish the pistons and the bore.

Ray
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daos
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

haven't measured (i will) but i agree - the straight line of the pitting suggests it sits above the seal.

this is how it looks after a thourough wash & clean up with metal polish:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


my main concern is the edges of the bores above the seal, really quite crusty. how important is this area - does it all need to come off?
aside from the one pitted bore shown above, the other three are really clean, as are the pistons. so there's hope.

can you post the link to your rebuild? would definitely like to read through it.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

The bore area above the seal is not important. Carefullt wire wheel that area but stay out of the seal groove. As long as the crust above the seql groove doea not drag on the piston its fine.

Some calipers even have this area slightly chamfered back from the piston diameter.

Your pistons look good. Ray
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daos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

all together and looking good:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


nice solid springback on the pistons/seals. will get them in the car as soon as i get access to a friends' lathe to clean up the rotors which are also a rusty mess. might just use a set of brake pads to clean them up instead. fingers crossed it all works.

appreciate all the input. this feels a lot better than just buying a new set of calipers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Nice to see clear, in-focus photos, daos.

Had you considered painting the caliper housings a light gold while you had them apart?

Trivia: Both mentioned brands are German, named for the company founders:
-FAG is Fischer Aktien Gesellschaft (founder Friedrich Fischer; AG is a corporation limited by share ownership)

-ATE is a contraction of the founder's name Alfred Teves.
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daos
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

thx, clear & focused photos are the best kind i feel (at least when attempting to illustrate specific processes..)!

though about paint but the oxide layer is pretty good protection, & my car is by no means a showpiece. i'm trying to retain as much of the 'left in the woods in the north of sweden for 25yrs' patina, though i won't be driving during the winter season when roads are salted. there is a little silver colour left on one of the calipers - just visible in the last photo - maybe it was gold fifty years ago..?

above all i'm happy to retain the ATE originals rather than replacing them with the iffy looking repro parts currently available. and this way i know it was done with due care & attention.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Quote:
there is a little silver colour left on one of the calipers - just visible in the last photo - maybe it was gold fifty years ago..?

Coincidentally here's a shot of several NOS Type 3 calipers from tS classifieds*. Compensating for the low ambient lighting, the original color would be very close/identical to the small area on your caliper- a "silvery gold" color. But I fully understand your overall "wild survivor" look. Functionality, which you';ve achieved with the repairs, takes precedence over appearance.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


*Here's the ad- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1660151
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EverettB Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

Here's an NOS one I used to own, it looked gold
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More pics
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php...r=everettb
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daos
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

ah nice! if i ever do a full restoration Laughing i know which colour to use..
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: FAG or ATE caliper rebuild kits? Interchangeable? Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Here's an NOS one I used to own, it looked gold
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


More pics
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php...r=everettb


Yes.....they were zinc plated....and then yellow chromated. PMB performance has a nice write up.

http://m.pmbperformance.com/calipers.html

At one time they used to have a service that would replate your calipers They also "used" to do hardware....but I just saw a note kn their site that noted they no longer takd in hardware because of work load.

http://m.pmbperformance.com/calipers.html

I think there were also caljpers that had a zinc paint on some of the type 3 and 4. Pictures in the Bentley and other "factory-esaque" books show some new calipers with no luster.

By the way....if you had later type 3 brakes.....which have the same piston as early type 4 and 914 calipers.... Centric makes new pistons for them for about,$25 each. Ray
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