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bruce pattison
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2009
Posts: 10
Location: Lakewood, CA.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| I have a 69 beetle running a 1641cc, single port, with a one solex 30-31 carb and when cold it starts up nicely. But after driving for a while and stopping I have a hard time starting. I seems to take a lot of gas to restart. I feeling like I'm almost flooding it. And when it starts I need to pump it to keep it running. But after starting it runs fine. Any ideas why it seems so hard to restart when hot and how to correct it???? |
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9756
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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When starting a hot ACVW engine. Gently roll the throttle pedal half way while cranking the engine. That is if everything is in time and functioning correctly. Don't pump the throttle, you might end up fowling a spark plug or 4. 
Is the engine timed correctly?
When was the last time that you adjusted the valve lash?
Is the carb clean and tuned?
Have you changed the spark plugs lately?
See where I'm going here? Time for a tune up.
Have a great weekend.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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This is about the 20th time in the past few weeks someone has posted this same issue on here. Car being driven for awhile until warm/hot, stopped and parked for a few minutes, and when you try to restart it it takes forever and sounds like it is either being starved for fuel or flooding. I still have the same issue too.
This is no coincidence people--- every one of us can't have bad timing, or bad fuel pump, or whatever. There is a common thread here and we need to figure out what it is.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| sb001 wrote: |
This is no coincidence people--- every one of us can't have a bad fuel pump, or whatever. |
Yes you can! The last fuel pump with anti-siphon/cutoff valve was made in 1970. Since then, not a single one has been produced. Vintage Werks in Utah rebuilds the good ones, but I can guarantee less than a dozen people on this site have the correct shutoff valves in place on their single carburetor engines.
No aftermarket fuel pump has the provisions to prevent this. After all, why would they? They can sell more rings and cylinders this way.
Robbie
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67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9756
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| sb001 wrote: |
This is about the 20th time in the past few weeks someone has posted this same issue on here. Car being driven for awhile until warm/hot, stopped and parked for a few minutes, and when you try to restart it it takes forever and sounds like it is either being starved for fuel or flooding. I still have the same issue too.
This is no coincidence people--- every one of us can't have bad timing, or bad fuel pump, or whatever. There is a common thread here and we need to figure out what it is. |
Yes all ACVW engines get hot and tend to overflow a bit of fuel. They are not a fuel injected engine. Take note that they are carbureted!
In the manual for your year car. When hot gently depress the throttle while cranking and it will start.
Sorry that your having problems with your car SB001. But this is not the post that requires your negative input. Go back to your original post and look for the answers there. Please try not to hijack other posters threads to further your frustrations
To the OP. Please disregard SB001 in this thread. He has an issue with his car and cannot figure it out. To date. Hopefully he will soon.
Have a great weekend.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
This is about the 20th time in the past few weeks someone has posted this same issue on here. Car being driven for awhile until warm/hot, stopped and parked for a few minutes, and when you try to restart it it takes forever and sounds like it is either being starved for fuel or flooding. I still have the same issue too.
This is no coincidence people--- every one of us can't have bad timing, or bad fuel pump, or whatever. There is a common thread here and we need to figure out what it is. |
Yes all ACVW engines get hot and tend to overflow a bit of fuel. They are not a fuel injected engine. Take note that they are carbureted!
In the manual for your year car. When hot gently depress the throttle while cranking and it will start.
Sorry that your having problems with your car SB001. But this is not the post that requires your negative input. Go back to your original post and look for the answers there. Please try not to hijack other posters threads to further your frustrations
To the OP. Please disregard SB001 in this thread. He has an issue with his car and cannot figure it out. To date. Hopefully he will soon.
Have a great weekend. |
What the hell are you talking about?? How is it hijacking if I have the same problem and suggest that there is more to it than "slightly depressing the gas pedal" since I have tried that many times? The same answers in my thread about this issue (which is not the MAIN issue I am having by the way but still an important one) have not helped, and if you're so sure that the only issue here is "gently pressing the gas pedal" I heartily invite you to come take a look at my car (and all the other 20 people who have posted about the same problem here) and see if that solves it.
Don't come after me for being "negative" because your suggestions have not provided the solution. Again, there are MANY folks posting here with the same issue. It would help us ALL to find out the REAL issue here.
To the original poster here-- I apologize if you feel I "hijacked" your thread, simply because I feel your pain and feel that there is more to the problem than the way we are pressing the gas pedal down. I do hope this suggestion works for you!
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:22 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
This is no coincidence people--- every one of us can't have a bad fuel pump, or whatever. |
Yes you can! The last fuel pump with anti-siphon/cutoff valve was made in 1970. Since then, not a single one has been produced. Vintage Werks in Utah rebuilds the good ones, but I can guarantee less than a dozen people on this site have the correct shutoff valves in place on their single carburetor engines.
No aftermarket fuel pump has the provisions to prevent this. After all, why would they? They can sell more rings and cylinders this way.
Robbie |
To the OP, I'm "assuming" your engine has a solid engine lid w/no vents in it either? You should post a picture of which fuel pump you're running. To Robbie's point, the other issue I've seen with bugs with non-vented engine lids is heat soak or improperly routed steel fuel lines going to the fuel pump.
People can accidently route their steel fuel lines where the line rests on the carb manifold preheat pipe. When you shut down the hot engine, the fuel pump and line soak up the heat of the engine causing a vapor lock. Once the engine cools enough, it will restart. My bone stock 67 engine would do this occasionally on hot Phoenix days. One time I went into a store, bought a cold bottle of water, poured it on the fuel pump to cool it down and the engine fired right up. I had routed that fuel line incorrectly and the corrected the routing of it. I also added some insulation by wrapping it in cloth fuel line where it's near hot parts to insure that line wouldn't soak up any extra heat.
Finally, the last thing I did was to install a convertible engine lid on the 67 bug. The lid lets the hot air escape the engine compartment much faster when it was shut down. I've also noticed the engine lid lets in a lot more air that seems to cool the ancillaries on the engine while driving. Those two changes solved the problem. Now, when I restart the hot engine, I do what the others do. I slow push the accelerator pedal down while cranking the engine and it fires right up.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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LocknFestBug
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2016
Posts: 44
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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This is my second summer with my 68 and I have this same problem too when it gets over 85 degrees out. I keep my valves, timing, points, and Solex 30pict3 adjusted. I replaced the rear steel gas line and grommet, all rubber hoses, and fuel tank. All engine tin is in place and new rubber engine compartment seals. My new fuel pump flange and rod move freely, and I have the convertible rear deck lid with the additional louvre's. I also have a rear louvre fiberglass scoop.
It seems no matter what I try, nothing works. When the engine is cold, it fires up instantly. Just one depress on the gas pedal and the automatic choke works as intended. But after it warms up, I find it harder to start. I have to hold the gas pedal to the floor and keep cranking. It always starts, but its stressful when I'm on a long trip and need to stop for gas. Many times I just leave it running, but there are times where I had to sit and wait 20 minutes or so before it would fire up.
I had several Bugs in the seventies and eighties and most of that time I was in hot ass Florida and never, ever, had this problem. Never.
This problem goes away in the fall and winter, but returns during warm weather. I am thinking of going to the electric fuel pump route but I am not confident that this will solve it either.
The only common denominator I can think of is the fuel we use these day's. I'm thinking that VW's dont like 10% ethanol. I could be wrong, but it's the only thing I see that is different from days gone by.
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1968 Bug. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:09 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| LocknFestBug wrote: |
This is my second summer with my 68 and I have this same problem too when it gets over 85 degrees out. I keep my valves, timing, points, and Solex 30pict3 adjusted. I replaced the rear steel gas line and grommet, all rubber hoses, and fuel tank. All engine tin is in place and new rubber engine compartment seals. My new fuel pump flange and rod move freely, and I have the convertible rear deck lid with the additional louvre's. I also have a rear louvre fiberglass scoop.
It seems no matter what I try, nothing works. When the engine is cold, it fires up instantly. Just one depress on the gas pedal and the automatic choke works as intended. But after it warms up, I find it harder to start. I have to hold the gas pedal to the floor and keep cranking. It always starts, but its stressful when I'm on a long trip and need to stop for gas. Many times I just leave it running, but there are times where I had to sit and wait 20 minutes or so before it would fire up.
I had several Bugs in the seventies and eighties and most of that time I was in hot ass Florida and never, ever, had this problem. Never.
This problem goes away in the fall and winter, but returns during warm weather. I am thinking of going to the electric fuel pump route but I am not confident that this will solve it either.
The only common denominator I can think of is the fuel we use these day's. I'm thinking that VW's dont like 10% ethanol. I could be wrong, but it's the only thing I see that is different from days gone by. |
Exactly! Same situation here- I never had this problem until recently. LOTS of us are having the exact same issue-- guess we all just aren't pressing the gas pedal properly. 
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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johnnypan
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| LocknFestBug wrote: |
This is my second summer with my 68 and I have this same problem too when it gets over 85 degrees out. I keep my valves, timing, points, and Solex 30pict3 adjusted. I replaced the rear steel gas line and grommet, all rubber hoses, and fuel tank. All engine tin is in place and new rubber engine compartment seals. My new fuel pump flange and rod move freely, and I have the convertible rear deck lid with the additional louvre's. I also have a rear louvre fiberglass scoop.
It seems no matter what I try, nothing works. When the engine is cold, it fires up instantly. Just one depress on the gas pedal and the automatic choke works as intended. But after it warms up, I find it harder to start. I have to hold the gas pedal to the floor and keep cranking. It always starts, but its stressful when I'm on a long trip and need to stop for gas. Many times I just leave it running, but there are times where I had to sit and wait 20 minutes or so before it would fire up.
I had several Bugs in the seventies and eighties and most of that time I was in hot ass Florida and never, ever, had this problem. Never.
This problem goes away in the fall and winter, but returns during warm weather. I am thinking of going to the electric fuel pump route but I am not confident that this will solve it either.
The only common denominator I can think of is the fuel we use these day's. I'm thinking that VW's dont like 10% ethanol. I could be wrong, but it's the only thing I see that is different from days gone by. |
Its not,the check valve in the fuel pump diaphram sticks open, the fuel doesnt pump..the check valve opens and closes with each stroke of the push rod,allowing fuel in to the pump,then closing to allow the diaphram to push the fuel out,when the check valve expands with engine heat it sticks open....run a rotary electric fuel pump and never have the problem again |
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LocknFestBug
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2016
Posts: 44
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| johnnypan wrote: |
Its not,the check valve in the fuel pump diaphram sticks open, the fuel doesnt pump..the check valve opens and closes with each stroke of the push rod,allowing fuel in to the pump,then closing to allow the diaphram to push the fuel out,when the check valve expands with engine heat it sticks open....run a rotary electric fuel pump and never have the problem again |
...but if my float bowl has fuel in it, which it does, then it should start up just fine no matter how hot it is. Right?
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1968 Bug. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:37 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| LocknFestBug wrote: |
| johnnypan wrote: |
Its not,the check valve in the fuel pump diaphram sticks open, the fuel doesnt pump..the check valve opens and closes with each stroke of the push rod,allowing fuel in to the pump,then closing to allow the diaphram to push the fuel out,when the check valve expands with engine heat it sticks open....run a rotary electric fuel pump and never have the problem again |
...but if my float bowl has fuel in it, which it does, then it should start up just fine no matter how hot it is. Right? |
Exactly what I was thinking--- the cutoff needle valve in the carb should stop the flow of fuel into the float bowl once it's filled-- so the pump itself should have nothing to do with the hard start issue. If the car was having difficulties while running, it would explain that. But I don't see how it could cause a hard start issue.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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johnnypan
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| LocknFestBug wrote: |
| johnnypan wrote: |
Its not,the check valve in the fuel pump diaphram sticks open, the fuel doesnt pump..the check valve opens and closes with each stroke of the push rod,allowing fuel in to the pump,then closing to allow the diaphram to push the fuel out,when the check valve expands with engine heat it sticks open....run a rotary electric fuel pump and never have the problem again |
...but if my float bowl has fuel in it, which it does, then it should start up just fine no matter how hot it is. Right? |
if the fuel level is high enough..I've experienced the issue myself,sometimes it would start,run for a 1/4 mile or so then starve...next time it happens try swapping out the fuel pump quickly,its how i isolated it to the pump,i carried a spare and slammed it on the car while it was still hot...boom.it started.I tried rebuilt pierburgs,knock off pierburgs,all the repop ones...finally went with the rotary and safety wired it..never had the problem again. |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:50 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| LocknFestBug wrote: |
| johnnypan wrote: |
Its not,the check valve in the fuel pump diaphram sticks open, the fuel doesnt pump..the check valve opens and closes with each stroke of the push rod,allowing fuel in to the pump,then closing to allow the diaphram to push the fuel out,when the check valve expands with engine heat it sticks open....run a rotary electric fuel pump and never have the problem again |
...but if my float bowl has fuel in it, which it does, then it should start up just fine no matter how hot it is. Right? |
A simple test would be to get the engine hot to the point where you're worried it won't restart. Let the car sit like you're going into the store for 10 minutes. Come back out and pull the air cleaner off. Pull the throttle and see if you're getting squirts of fuel through the accelerator nozzle. If you are getting a strong stream of fuel, try to start it. If it won't fire off, then it could be an electrical issue with the coil or condenser. If no fuel is coming out of the nozzle, go to the fuel pump and pour a bottle of cold water on it. Go back into the car and see if it will fire right up. If it starts, you've found your problem.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| johnnypan wrote: |
| if the fuel level is high enough..I've experienced the issue myself,sometimes it would start,run for a 1/4 mile or so then starve...next time it happens try swapping out the fuel pump quickly,its how i isolated it to the pump,i carried a spare and slammed it on the car while it was still hot...boom.it started.I tried rebuilt pierburgs,knock off pierburgs,all the repop ones...finally went with the rotary and safety wired it..never had the problem again. |
I thought these cars were reliable... straight from the factory....
and the car starting OK and THEN cutting out is not the problem we're having, learn to read...
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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johnnypan
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7431
Location: sackamenna
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| johnnypan wrote: |
| if the fuel level is high enough..I've experienced the issue myself,sometimes it would start,run for a 1/4 mile or so then starve...next time it happens try swapping out the fuel pump quickly,its how i isolated it to the pump,i carried a spare and slammed it on the car while it was still hot...boom.it started.I tried rebuilt pierburgs,knock off pierburgs,all the repop ones...finally went with the rotary and safety wired it..never had the problem again. |
I thought these cars were reliable... straight from the factory....
and the car starting OK and THEN cutting out is not the problem we're having, learn to read... |
This isnt your thread,quit trying to cause trouble, just because you cant fix your car or fail to accept advice don't hack at me...like every other time you have,you'll lose..Im one of the few on here who gives you shit,but ultimately helps you with your issue,you fail to take my advice?and still have a problem? too bad.
I've found a blend of parts have provided the most trouble free driving experience ....car owners often want everything be accurate for their year model,but never get the car judged,then demand rock solid reliability..as VW engineering evolved some items were greatly improved,like the self supporting starter and the alternator..others declined,like the 34/3 and the DVDA distributor..I picked what I researched as the best,not for power or speed but for dependability...and I have fun with it too, explaining why i believe the blend I have is reliable..not arguing if the part is authentic or I didn't use the correct bolt..and i drive the shit out of it,regardless of the weather,here's my build:
Dual relief as21 case
full flow oil filtration
Mahle pistons (static balanced,rods too) and cylinders
hand lapped and fitted single port heads
Welded Vw counterbalanced crankshaft
kolbenschmidt and mahle bearings
stock flywheel
Vw cam reground to w100 spec. (dual thrust bearings)
stock exhaust
H30/31 carb
rotary fuel pump
Al82n alternator
Bosch cast iron 019 distrributor
blueprinted 26mm shadek oil pump.
I have easily 80 hours in this build,time i enjoyed fitting and checking every item..the P/C's were good used,gently crosshatched and assembled with grant rings.the heads were good used as well,one time rebuilts with low hours,I used barrel shims to bring the compression down due to them being flycut.Currently have 30k on it,runs like new,no oil use between 1500 mile changes,oil barely changes color..Glenn's distributor works flawlessly,the H30/31 was brand new,pulled off a flip car..oil control pistons and springs polished and measured..time well spent,hobby time,time i enjoyed..I enjoyed the pitfalls too,like hand fitting the crank cam gear, the used crank gear didnt mate up to the cam gear well,had to dress each tooth to prevent cam ride up during build..
This is my hobby,my fun time,I don't agonize or complain its the cars fault,I figure out and repair the issue.Shit talking on here is a product of my experience,as a mechanic we talked shit constantly in the shop as a way to pass the time.. |
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Frizbal
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2016
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: 69 bug hard starting when hot |
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I thought I'd revive this. I'm having this right now, but only after some changes. I gave the single vacuum advance distributed, and 30/31h carb. I've been going through the car and tuning everything. It ran fine, but there was some clatter. Checked valves, they were gapped too wide. Fixed that to .006. Also noticed the vacuum advance line was attached to a front vacuum port on the front of the carb, instead of the one on the left. Fixed that. Adjusted timing to 7.5 advance.
The car started great in the garage. Drove it around, noticed it lost a little power, but idled much more smoothly. Drive it to lunch, then wouldn't re-start after being hot. Pushed pedal to the floor, and it started. Then it ran perfect.
Any correlation to what's going to everyone else's problem? Maybe the timing was better before, then when it got hot it messed it up? Maybe vacuum advance messed it up during starting? |
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