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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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Hey all! So I wasn't able to find a solid watterboxer in my area, and I didn't want to drop the 4.5k for the gowesty engine (mostly because I would always know that if I had the time I could have got a crispy vanistan) so I am undertaking a full rebuild! I was going to post an "I'm about to start!" thread with some basic questions, but I ended up making it very deep into the build with all the great information already out there.
There are, however, some fringe questions I couldn't find answered with search, and I'd love to pick y'alls brains so I can do this right.
Let's start with the blocker. I got my heads, cylinders, pistons, rods, flexplate, and pulley off, I started removing nuts to split the case, and found a nut inside the watterjacket that is absolutely dissolved. I tried to hammer on a 14 mil, but it still slipped (granted it was not a 6 point). What should I do in this case? Chisel it off? Bolt extractor? I don't want to damage the stud. And once it's removed, where do I find another nut?
And speaking of nuts, should I have nuts on these two studs? I'm thinking yes:
Apparently this engine was rebuilt once before, to some degree. (pretty sure only one of those o-rings should be green).
What is this little metal piece? Came out with a rod bearing.
Got a few questions for a more trained eye. Check out the pitting on this rod bearing, and the scoring on the other one. Does anyone know what this is a sign of? It seems like it would be different causes for each symptom.
Another trained eye question: How do these valves look? I thought I had a burnt intake valve, but to my eyes, these valves actually look pretty good:
If you've made it this far, also wondering how to pry off a really stuck oil pump... I don't want to damage the case... I was thinking that once I split the case, the movement would loosen it up a little and it would come out? Is that sound thinking or should I definitely pry it out first? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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try a six point on that nut, if no go try a stripped head extractor socket.
for the oil pump, there are pullers made for them, if the pump mounting studs are still inplace with the pump you wont be able to split the casf. remove either the pump or the studs from one side.
them two studs should have nuts on them and washer
you need to remove the valves to propperly inspect them _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Robw_z Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2007 Posts: 983
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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The two studs without nuts and washers are mounts for the intake manifold. They were presumably removed in order to remove the intake manifold and not replaced.
-Rob |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:39 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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my oil pump came out easy when i split the case.
yes, bottom ring on cylinder is usually black. not sure if it matters though. the bottom will have contact with oil, the top just coolant (if all is well).
not sure about your mystery rod metal bit. kind of alarming, eh? reconditioned rods from van-cafe are worth the money. i regret not doing that.
van-cafe also have replacements for the corroded nut you want to remove ( http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_580_257/engine-case-half-nut-in-h20-jacket4-per-engine.html ). one of mine needed a cheater pipe to remove it, so, perhaps clean it up as best you can so you have a good grip. but you really do not want to break the stud. swearing helps.
you can take the heads to a machine shop to get the valves inspected, they can do a pressure test. the internet won't tell you much. i'm not sure if this is worth the money, but if you want to be thorough.
my rebuild thread has some links that may be of use:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=589769 _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:15 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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Awesome thanks y'all. I actually didn't know this engine was rebuilt already when I got into it, but it looks like they even replaced the rod bolts with non-stretch 1.9 rod bolts. I can re-use those, correct? I already purchased two gowesty-amc heads too, then found out that the heads on this engine were re-valved AMCs. I will probably use the new ones and sell the AMCs on samba classifieds.
This nut is being a SOB... the bolt extractor set I got has a hex outer edge that is hitting on the case...
Kind of marred the case a little... is this okay? Should I buff this smooth?
Any other methods for extraction, break it off with a chisel? Hit it with a blow torch? Also, how is this bolt so completely rusted when all the others look fine? Can I buy a replacement case stud if I mess up the stud? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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WOOOO!!!!!! WE DID IT!!!!! No greater feeling! I soaked the bolt in PB blaster a few times and let it set as I took the socket to a grinding wheel and rounded it out completely. Then, I hit the nut with a propane torch for about 25 seconds, then hammered on the extractor and cranked on it with a breaker bar and we are HOME FREE YEAH! Thanks for the suggestion y'all
_________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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fraggle00 Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2011 Posts: 356 Location: Bristow, VA
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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That's one ugly nut!
Make sure to clean clean clean all the threads before assembly. The marks you made in the case with the extractor aren't a big deal, I'd probably clean them up a little but they're in the water jacket, not the oil, not nearly as critical.
Other poster is correct, the nuts for those studs are probably in the Baggie where you put all the intake bits. _________________ '91 Vanagon Carat
'87 Porsche 928S4 DOWN
'12 Fiat 500 Abarth |
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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fraggle00 wrote: |
Other poster is correct, the nuts for those studs are probably in the Baggie where you put all the intake bits. |
Nice, I'm glad they weren't just "deleted" by the PO like plenty of other things I've discovered
Well, I opened the case. Case looks good, crank looks good, bearings look good, but look at my poor cam gear
Also chewed up the crank gear that drives it.
Now I have the very exciting task of finding gears and setting backlash _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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Okay I'm preparing myself for a resounding no, but....... could I re-use this cam gear? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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How bent is too bent for a pushrod? If it deflects 0.2mm from straight, can I reuse it? Or is it on its way out? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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Wow, when spinning the crank with the gear meshed to the camshaft, I encounter SIGNIFICANT resistance in some spots. Hm. I wonder what this was doing to the engine. _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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MidwestDrifter Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2012 Posts: 769 Location: Kicking Around Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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jkmcrg wrote: |
Wow, when spinning the crank with the gear meshed to the camshaft, I encounter SIGNIFICANT resistance in some spots. Hm. I wonder what this was doing to the engine. |
Yeah, probably time to replace those.... You might want to have a machine shop check the crank/cam for trueness. They may be bent. _________________ 2004 Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter (Custom Camper)
2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Diesel Westy W/ ABA I4 hybrid (Sold)
Epic Road Tripping since 08/05/12 | http://VagariesAbound.blogspot.com/
My Current Build | http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41215 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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the push rod needs to be straight. the outside of the crank bearing looks like it might have spun. you need to pull the crank and bearings to see if they have wear marks, but even with no wear marks readily visable, they still could be worn out. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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jkmcrg wrote: |
Wow, when spinning the crank with the gear meshed to the camshaft, I encounter SIGNIFICANT resistance in some spots. Hm. I wonder what this was doing to the engine. |
I'd be curious if the casting is failing or something got between the cam and crank gear. OR.... the cam gear is made of softer metal. It's the "sacrificial" piece?
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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Yup, I got the crank checked for trueness, and a line bore check on the case. Both checked out! He polished the crank and we're good to go.
I don't trust my noobie eye on the bearings, so I ordered a new standard set of mains. Actually I ordered new bearings for everything. Literally paying for my lack of knowledge
Also I ordered 5 new push rods and kept only the 3 perfectly true ones.
Then I checked the backlash on my current camshaft gear and it was almost perfect (0.001 in), so I called up van-cafe and ordered a regrind from their trusted source at -3 which they had in stock. Hallelujah! I count myself very lucky for that, even though I realize the backlash could be slightly different with the new bearings, I think it will be very close.
As far as what caused the destruction- if you look at the inside of my case around the camshaft gear, you can see that it is all marked up like something was bouncing off the walls. Something somehow got in there and was chewed up and spit out. Actually probably not spit out, it was probably that mystery brass looking metal piece in the photos above with the rod bearings. Or it could have been this:
A spring I found in my oil sump pick up filter..... where did this little guy come from? I have my distributor spring so it's not that. And it doesn't match it, either. ??? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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I would double check your crank journals, you have undersized main bearings on the crank side\std on the case side.. |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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too big to be a spring from a lifter. looks a bit like a spring from a ball point pen. i wonder if some bright chap with a pen in his pocket leaned over too far when filling the oil. :/
as to all the gear wounds. you can and maybe should replace all the missing chunks (edit: with new gears), but you can also just sand down the edges of the wounds and it will probably have plenty of area left to work just fine. it depends on your budget and how far you want to go.
the main thing would be keeping these foreign objects out of the poor engine. i would be pretty paranoid about cleaning/inspecting all the oil passageways for other tooth breaking treasures.
a bit strange to see undersize bearings. given this and the damage i would be extra diligent getting a machine shop to measure all crank tolerances. agree with jberger about being careful.
i don't mean to be a downer, but you've got quite a few odds against you in this so far. that said, every horrible thing i find & fix that the PO did to my van gives me great pleasure. and there is a goldmine of mess. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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I ordered a new camshaft and crank gear, so those will be all new. I am letting the "right way" of doing things dictate my budget. So far, it is costly, but will hopefully be worth it. Hopefully one day I will know enough to cut corners smartly
You might be onto something about the lifters, actually... one of my them looked a little messed up. I will open it to inspect. I did buy all new ones for the rebuild though.
I got the engine power washed by the machinist, but I will make sure to flush the oil passages again.
You have got to be kidding me about the main bearings... I thought I had everything in the mail... What bearings should I order, then? I have standard on the way..... _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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Last edited by jkmcrg on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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check & measure the case halves carefully or have a VW familiar machinist do it _________________ .... |
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jkmcrg Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2014 Posts: 169 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rebuild progress, pics, & a few odd questions |
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I see now that you were looking at the marking on the bearings. I looked into it, and found a post by 10c from a while ago
tencentlife wrote: |
You can normally tell under and over on KS bearings by looking on back of the #1,2 or 3 (typically no offsize markings on #4) for a capital U or Ü followed by a mm size, e.g. o.25mm, 0.5mm, etc.
U is for unter, or undersized. Sizes are U 0.25mm, U 0.5mm, U 0.75mm (and I think there's a U 1mm but you never see them)
Ü is for Über, or oversized (remember Dan Aykroyd as "Übermann"). Sizes are Ü 0.5mm, Ü 1mm, Ü 1.5mm |
There is an umlaut on that bearing, so it is oversized. Does that mean my case has been line bored? They do fit in the case pretty snug. Would I notice if they were oversized bearings in a non-bored case? _________________ 1984 Westfalia Orwell (crispy)
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