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Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation
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jberger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

If I remember correctly your injection system is similar to the Mexi beetle. While our vans have a supply and return to the tank, your pump feeds itself from a reservoir body and bleeds excess pressure back to itself. A more permanent fix would be to retrofit a vanagon\bus style digijet\fant pump and plumb a return from your fuel rail to the tank.. You would also need a pressure regulator as all of those functions are taken care of by your pump\reservoir now. Question... did you replace just the pump motor or the regulator assembly et al.?

Last edited by jberger on Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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chompy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

HastaAlaska wrote:
chompy wrote:
I would ditch your pre-filter and grab some brass fittings from your local hardware store to convert from 7mm to 12mm. The fuel pumps will cavitate trying to to pull that much fuel out of the narrow tank outlet. They would rather push the fuel into a nice big metal canister fuel filter instead of pulling from a pre-filter.


Hey guys

Napa didn't have an AN fitting that I was hoping for to enlarge my tank outlet to 12mm. I have gone with the advice as the next best option and swapped the pre-filter for the brass fittings.

I'm off to Alaska now, I'm pretty excited about that fact. (it's only taken 4 years of driving - to get here)

[pic]

I'll post back to let you know how it goes on the drive from Dawson to Fairbanks.

Thanks for your help.

Ben


Great to hear you're on the road again, Its been fun watching your journey!
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seventyfo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

After installing the resistor the pump is slowed to a speed that I can't even hear when running or even when the key is first turned on. That can't be a bad thing I hope.
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Forthwithtx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Been working for me for months. It's a little spooky if you're used to hearing it.
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

chompy wrote:
I would ditch your pre-filter and grab some brass fittings from your local hardware store to convert from 7mm to 12mm. The fuel pumps will cavitate trying to to pull that much fuel out of the narrow tank outlet. They would rather push the fuel into a nice big metal canister fuel filter instead of pulling from a pre-filter. Some of us also use a resistor to slow the fuel pump down. It's part number BWD RU4 and looks like this when installed between the ground of the fuel pump. Keep in mind the resistor gets really hot so I would space it away from your fuel lines.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

picture from forthwithtx


I thought the fuel starvation issue had been greatly improved with the removal of the pre-filter. We've been driving around Dawson for the past couple of days with no problem but we filled up and headed out of town and we tried to make a dash for the Alaskan border and got 50 miles out of Dawson on some long dirt roads and the pump started making noises and the starvation issue was back. (i've spent the last 8 hours hobbling back to Dawson, just arrived)

In absence of an ignition ballast resister We tied to make a resister with lots of joined together wire for the ground terminal of the fuel pump. It added about 1 ohm of resistance and did slow the pump a little but didn't help for long.

Anyone know what resistance this resister has? I couldn't find any specs online I made it back to Dawson (it took all bloody day) the napa guy says he has one for an old mustang somewhere in his shop, he knows nothing about it.
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Also I made a new video about the VW rescue and resurrection after the fire disaster that I've recently been dealing with. You might get a kick out of it.


Link

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chompy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

I believe they are about 1.4 ohms. You can use any ballast resistor like ICR34 could work as well.
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

great thanks - I will try one out today
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nemobuscaptain
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

HastaAlaska wrote:
Also I made a new video about the VW rescue and resurrection after the fire disaster that I've recently been dealing with. You might get a kick out of it.


Link


You put this whole loaf bus thread in the vanagon forum just to get more hits on that youtube page, dint ya?

It worked. Cool vid.
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tschroeder0
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Man! John's Garage...I wonder how many people John and Chantell have helped? They were so amazing to me that I hardly have words to express how I still feel about them all these years later.
If there were a Samba award(maybe there should be) They would recieve the highest honor.
So glad you two are back on the road!
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

nemobuscaptain wrote:
You put this whole loaf bus thread in the vanagon forum just to get more hits on that youtube page, dint ya?
It worked. Cool vid.


Ha ha, actually no, I did and still do need your heads on this problem that I'm having. I've spoken to Everett about gaining more visiability outside of the Baywindow forum about our videos and VW project. I'm sure lots of people on this site (not just the Bay guys) would enjoy our travel series, but as yet we haven't found a way to tell people about our videos - so please tell you friends Wink

So I made it to AK. The ballast resistor of 2ohms that I installed seemed to do a good job but we broke down again today at the top of the world highway. same issue/

I've looked in the tank, and no crud in there.

Now, I suspected that the issue was (as always) no fuel arriving at the pump. When I cut the line between the prefilter* and the tank outlet its hissed and pressure was released, then the fuel started coming out of the tank.

*I tried removing the prefilter all together and using brass fittings instead but that made the problem worse by reducing the size of the outlet of the tank further.

To me, it seems as though there is an airlock between the tank outlet and the pump inlet, possibly caused by cavitation of the pump. Is this even possible?

I thought the air would just escape into the tank and out of the breather of gas cap, but it doesn't seem to be. The other day we drove a long way with the gas cap off so I don't think this is the issue.

Can anyone shed any light on this subject, it's confusing (and annoying) the crap out of me.

Thanks

Ben
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Was it pressure hissing out or a vacuum being filled hissing?

I suspect a vacuum was what you heard.

If so, your vapor control system is blocked not allowing the fuel removed to be replaced by atmospheric air.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

You likely have something floating around in the tank that eventually gets drawn over the outlet pipe blocking it. This is not an uncommon problem with these and other rigs. Cut the access hole in the rear deck for the fuel sender (if VW didn't do that to start with) and then remove the sender and take a peek inside the tank. You can also drain the tank and then stick a piece of bare solid 14 or 12 gauge wire up in the outlet so that it sticks up inside the tank. This will make it unlikely that anything can get sucked down over the outlet thus sealing it, but it will also reduce the area of the outlet pipe which could be problematic.
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AKWesty
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Was it pressure hissing out or a vacuum being filled hissing?

I suspect a vacuum was what you heard.

If so, your vapor control system is blocked not allowing the fuel removed to be replaced by atmospheric air.

Dave


By him driving with the gas cap off, and still having the problem, eliminate the vapor control system from the list of possibilities?
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
You likely have something floating around in the tank that eventually gets drawn over the outlet pipe blocking it. This is not an uncommon problem with these and other rigs. Cut the access hole in the rear deck for the fuel sender (if VW didn't do that to start with) and then remove the sender and take a peek inside the tank. You can also drain the tank and then stick a piece of bare solid 14 or 12 gauge wire up in the outlet so that it sticks up inside the tank. This will make it unlikely that anything can get sucked down over the outlet thus sealing it, but it will also reduce the area of the outlet pipe which could be problematic.


The recent brass fitting I installed to replace the pre-filter reduced the diameter of the flow to the pump by about 1mm. That was enough to make the problem much worse.

In troubleshooting this issue I've drained the tank 3 times with no disruption to flow at all, I've looked in the tank (through the access hole) and can't see anything in there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

AKWesty wrote:
djkeev wrote:
Was it pressure hissing out or a vacuum being filled hissing?

I suspect a vacuum was what you heard.

If so, your vapor control system is blocked not allowing the fuel removed to be replaced by atmospheric air.

Dave


By him driving with the gas cap off, and still having the problem, eliminate the vapor control system from the list of possibilities?


I'm pretty sure he said the opposite.

Quote:
The other day we drove a long way with the gas cap off so I don't think this is the issue.


It does seem like your lack of gas tank ventilation is what is causing the cavitation if it isn't a piece of crud randomly blocking the outlet like Wildthings suggested. What does the bay window have for tank ventilation?
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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

chompy wrote:
AKWesty wrote:

By him driving with the gas cap off, and still having the problem, eliminate the vapor control system from the list of possibilities?


I'm pretty sure he said the opposite.


I drove for a long time with the gas cap off (because we lost it for half a day) and the problem still occurred. I appreciate you all putting your heads together on this one.

inbetween breakdowns I managed to upload another video of life behind the scenes during this recent yukon breakdown, if you're interested:



Link

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HastaAlaska
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Broken down NOW fuel pump starvation Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

I've received the AN fitting in the mail, not sure if it will be needed though.

Steve happened to notice me under the bus by the side of a river. He kindly offered to go back to Fairbanks and return the next day with a scope camera so that we could have a good look in the tank and guess what we found. A piece of vinyl tape. (it's been there since the Whitehorse restoration)

Looks to be the reasons for the breakdown.

Thank you to all of you who have helped me troubleshoot this issue. I know a few of you called out the tank blockage a while back. I did look in there twice and drained to twice also but didn't see anything - we even lost it for a while with the camera so it was tricky to find as it would stick to the side of the tank.

I'm going to push on to Prudhoe Bay now, that about 20hrs of driving up to the Arctic circle on some pretty crappy roads so wish me luck

Happy 'Merica' day in the meantime.

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