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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:46 am Post subject: 1970 squareback FI help |
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Alright so a little while back i was coming home from work and my engine started to buck a very lightly on the freeway a few times. I made it home with no problems but the next day it got much worse to the point it would happen quite often and much harsher.
I replaced the old spark plug wires, djusted the tps, changed the fuel filter, checked the spark plug gap and when i drove it after doing those it drove beautifully, for that night only... which i now assume was just a coincidence 
A few days ago it came back worse than ever. The engine idles erratically and dies out. Occasionally when i try to start it it wont fire, bucks like crazy at any speed, and i get a no crank condition once in a while too, the last time i tried to start it i heard an unpleasant noise from the starter area.
I checked the battery volatge it was around 12.57 even while idling for the few seconds it would. i checked the alternator and the voltage never moved from 12.4ish. Is it possible a bad alternator would cause it to run (or not run) this badly?
Any help would be great, i love driving my square and want to get it back on the road as soon as possible |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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12 volts or more will let it run well. But other electrical gremlins can affect the FI. Check that the pump relay under the dash is well attached. I think it grounds through the mounting screw. Same for the Main relay under the back seat.
Then on to the usual complete hose check, and wiggling/tugging of wires to replicate the miss.
Damned intermittents! |
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knewknew
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 217
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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I had a similar problem with mine awhile back. The culprit was a loose screw in the distributor point mount. Check the point gap and make sure the screw is down tight!
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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That's the thing though, it started out intermittent, happened only at high rpms, and now it's gotten to where i can't even get the car to run for more than a few seconds if at all. Sometimes it won't crank but when it does it starts up, sounds horrible, then just sputters out and dies. Not sure what i can do since i can't get it to run long enough to check anything
Like right now i tried to start it up it cranked a few times , ran once for a few seconds, then no crank after i tried to start it again.
This is what im dealing with. Can't make it to anything in time to check.
https://youtu.be/eldIsdN_hcc
I checked the screw and point gap, both were still good |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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Eliminate the ignition system as the source, then put a fuel pressure gauge on it. It almost sounds like a pump saying adios.
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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What should the pressure be? I have a gauge on there and for the second it runs it jumps up to just under 30 psi. Then drops quickly after the engine stalls which I'm assuming would mean the pump is ok right? I did notice today that i could smell a bit of gas from the back when trying to start it
Some more info, when i checked the spark plug gap i noticed that 1 of the plugs had a thin coating of oil on it. This is a newly rebuilt engine which sucks.
Last edited by Elguerrogigante on Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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28 is right, 30 will run okay but a bit rich.
If it drops when the engine stops then you are bleeding down fast, perhaps from a failed check valve in the pump. You will have to crank longer to get it to start but it will run right once started. |
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
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72squareguy
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
Kinda sounds like an issue I'm having. Idles okay but cuts in n out at higher rpms.
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:29 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
Kinda sounds like an issue I'm having. Idles okay but cuts in n out at higher rpms. |
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. I've been looking through d/a/n s post on their 69 square and it's making me a little nervous. Lots of the symptoms they get I've also been getting. I don't want this to be an ongoing battle for 4 years. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:16 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
28 is right, 30 will run okay but a bit rich.
If it drops when the engine stops then you are bleeding down fast, perhaps from a failed check valve in the pump. You will have to crank longer to get it to start but it will run right once started. |
Yes...it "CAN" be the check valve in the pump. 15 years ago.....when when most of these pumps were 15 years less old.....it would have rarely been the check valve in the pump.
In fact.....in order .....fast drop off of fuel pressure after shut down.....all external leakage issues aside....because they should have been repaired already....are:
1. Injector leakage: either one of the four main injectors or the cold start valve is leaking.
2. The fuel pressure regulator is leaking due to rust on the metering plate area.....in fact almost all regulator leak a little.....and if the car has sat for a while especially with gasoline with ethanol in it....they rust quickly.
3. As mentioned....the relief valve in the pump is leaking. There is a check valve in both ends of the system. These are the FPR and the relief valve. They keep minimum pressure for atomization on the system for at least a day when working properly.
4. The pump itself being worn out can cause this effect to a large degree. Part of being worn out is the leaking check valve and part of it is worn roller and roller cells.....which allow back leakage and make the fuel pressure variable.
First things first....with regard to fuel pressure.....get a gauge and test the pump. Wire it direct to battery and check that it puts out .75 to 1.0 liters per minute while keeping stable fuel pressure.
Bosch described this system as three seperate inter lock8ng systems:
1. Air system: TB, plenum, runners, vacuum lines, AAR, PCV system if you have one. No leaks allowed. Check everything and clamp everything.
2. Fuel system: pump, lines, filter, strainer, regulator, injectors, CSV. Check them all. No leaks allowed, proper resistance and spray pattern on injectors.
3. Control system: ECU, wires, wire connectors, grounds, trigger points, TVS, temp sensors 1 and 2, power input and relays.
The system that is just as important.....is ignition. Make sure it all works to s0ec including advance....vacuim and centrifugal.
If you dont want to spend forever chasing this problem.....stop......set everything straight in each sub system.....meaning TEST AND REPAIR AND CLAMP EVERYTHING......which can all be done in a day. Otherwise you are simply fixing one item....driving.....seeing the combined effect of what may be several problems. ...which tells you nothing unless you know what you are looking for. You will spend months doing single fixes, driving them doing the question and answer thing and waiting a week in between.
Do the due diligence and test and repair. In this way you KNOW whats NOT wrong or out of spec.....when something changes. Ray |
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
28 is right, 30 will run okay but a bit rich.
If it drops when the engine stops then you are bleeding down fast, perhaps from a failed check valve in the pump. You will have to crank longer to get it to start but it will run right once started. |
Yes...it "CAN" be the check valve in the pump. 15 years ago.....when when most of these pumps were 15 years less old.....it would have rarely been the check valve in the pump.
In fact.....in order .....fast drop off of fuel pressure after shut down.....all external leakage issues aside....because they should have been repaired already....are:
1. Injector leakage: either one of the four main injectors or the cold start valve is leaking.
2. The fuel pressure regulator is leaking due to rust on the metering plate area.....in fact almost all regulator leak a little.....and if the car has sat for a while especially with gasoline with ethanol in it....they rust quickly.
3. As mentioned....the relief valve in the pump is leaking. There is a check valve in both ends of the system. These are the FPR and the relief valve. They keep minimum pressure for atomization on the system for at least a day when working properly.
4. The pump itself being worn out can cause this effect to a large degree. Part of being worn out is the leaking check valve and part of it is worn roller and roller cells.....which allow back leakage and make the fuel pressure variable.
First things first....with regard to fuel pressure.....get a gauge and test the pump. Wire it direct to battery and check that it puts out .75 to 1.0 liters per minute while keeping stable fuel pressure.
Bosch described this system as three seperate inter lock8ng systems:
1. Air system: TB, plenum, runners, vacuum lines, AAR, PCV system if you have one. No leaks allowed. Check everything and clamp everything.
2. Fuel system: pump, lines, filter, strainer, regulator, injectors, CSV. Check them all. No leaks allowed, proper resistance and spray pattern on injectors.
3. Control system: ECU, wires, wire connectors, grounds, trigger points, TVS, temp sensors 1 and 2, power input and relays.
The system that is just as important.....is ignition. Make sure it all works to s0ec including advance....vacuim and centrifugal.
If you dont want to spend forever chasing this problem.....stop......set everything straight in each sub system.....meaning TEST AND REPAIR AND CLAMP EVERYTHING......which can all be done in a day. Otherwise you are simply fixing one item....driving.....seeing the combined effect of what may be several problems. ...which tells you nothing unless you know what you are looking for. You will spend months doing single fixes, driving them doing the question and answer thing and waiting a week in between.
Do the due diligence and test and repair. In this way you KNOW whats NOT wrong or out of spec.....when something changes. Ray |
Thanks Ray. I just get ahead of myself sometimes. |
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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I finally had some time to take the starter out and put a new one in so it starts just fine now.
One thing i checked was the 3 wires coming from the side of the distributor. They had a good amount of oil in the connector. I vacuumed out the puddle, cleaned it with some electrical cleaner, and wiped everything up.
When i turned the car off this time after the test drive the pressure dropped to about 15 them slowly rose to 28 psi and it idled just fine before that.
Could the oil filled connector have caused some of my problems?
I am still going to go through and check everything thing else now that i can turn the car on
Last edited by Elguerrogigante on Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I finally had some time to take the starter out and put a new one in so it starts just fine now.
One thing i checked was the 3 wires coming from the side of the distributor. They had a good amount of oil in the connector. I vacuumed out the puddle, cleaned it with some electrical cleaner, and wiped everything up.
When i turned the car off this time the pressure stayed at 28 psi and it idled just fine.
Could the oil filled connector have caused my problems? |
That is a strange answer for that.
In general...no.....that three wire pug....one of the most important to have perfect connection in the system.....will have "0" to do with fuel pressure bleed down after shut off.
It is the fuel injector trigger point plugs. It sets the injection timing and triggers the injection window of time for each pair of injectora.
If the conne tion is poor or the contacts kr dirty....or loose ....or corroded. ...it can cause some of the crappiest running or no running at all. And....oils of most type have a fairly high level of insulation and dielectric capacity. ....meaning they can mess up the connection
Just cleaning them can cause a buge change in running.
The wierd part of this answer (but not really if you know how the system works) .....poor or rattling connections at this plug along with incorrect ignition timing.....will cause very erratic fuel pressure stability. The effect of timing and poor connectivity on injection timing and quality. ....greatly affects the engine running efficiency. That affects vacuum signature stability......that affects the MPS....which affects injector pulsewidth.....with causes wide swings of fuel pressure. ....like +/- 3-5 psi at idle and low rpm.
Since you dont appear to know what that three pring plug is.....its a friendly suggestion to stop working on this car until you read up on the system a bit and figure out the names and functions of wverything you are tinkering with. Ray |
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I finally had some time to take the starter out and put a new one in so it starts just fine now.
One thing i checked was the 3 wires coming from the side of the distributor. They had a good amount of oil in the connector. I vacuumed out the puddle, cleaned it with some electrical cleaner, and wiped everything up.
When i turned the car off this time the pressure stayed at 28 psi and it idled just fine.
Could the oil filled connector have caused my problems? |
That is a strange answer for that.
In general...no.....that three wire pug....one of the most important to have perfect connection in the system.....will have "0" to do with fuel pressure bleed down after shut off.
It is the fuel injector trigger point plugs. It sets the injection timing and triggers the injection window of time for each pair of injectora.
If the conne tion is poor or the contacts kr dirty....or loose ....or corroded. ...it can cause some of the crappiest running or no running at all. And....oils of most type have a fairly high level of insulation and dielectric capacity. ....meaning they can mess up the connection
Just cleaning them can cause a buge change in running.
The wierd part of this answer (but not really if you know how the system works) .....poor or rattling connections at this plug along with incorrect ignition timing.....will cause very erratic fuel pressure stability. The effect of timing and poor connectivity on injection timing and quality. ....greatly affects the engine running efficiency. That affects vacuum signature stability......that affects the MPS....which affects injector pulsewidth.....with causes wide swings of fuel pressure. ....like +/- 3-5 psi at idle and low rpm.
Since you dont appear to know what that three pring plug is.....its a friendly suggestion to stop working on this car until you read up on the system a bit and figure out the names and functions of wverything you are tinkering with. Ray |
I'm just trying to figure things out as i go along. You're right, i don't fully understand everything on this car, i know it's obvious. I'm here to learn. I'm a bit overwhelmed with trying to pick up all this quickly i need to just slow it down and get better at learning through the different manuals and all that |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
| I'm here to learn. |
You came to the right place. I've owned/driven/worked on these for 40 years and I am still learning here! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:33 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Quote: |
| I'm just trying to figure things out as i go along. You're right, i don't fully understand everything on this car, i know it's obvious. I'm here to learn. Im a bit overwhelmed with trying to pick up all this quickly i need to just slow it down and get better at learning through the different manuals and all that |
 ......you are doing fine!.....didn't mean to sound like I was beating on you.
Just saying that you will drive yourself crazy trying to run and drive this thing while fixing it.....and ....how the system works ....if you are used to carburetors.....will seem counter intuitive. ......and if you are not used to working on cars at all......it will seem downright mysterious.
The vast majority of what needs to be checked and set straight with,D-jet inection can be done without ever leaving the parkiny place. Ray |
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72squareguy
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
Kinda sounds like an issue I'm having. Idles okay but cuts in n out at higher rpms. |
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. I've been looking through d/a/n s post on their 69 square and it's making me a little nervous. Lots of the symptoms they get I've also been getting. I don't want this to be an ongoing battle for 4 years. |
My issue ended up being the cyl head temp sensor loose in the head.... might wanna check that as well..
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72 F.I Squareback
70 Beetle Daily Driver |
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Elguerrogigante
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2016
Posts: 14
Location: Downey, california
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:01 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
Kinda sounds like an issue I'm having. Idles okay but cuts in n out at higher rpms. |
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. I've been looking through d/a/n s post on their 69 square and it's making me a little nervous. Lots of the symptoms they get I've also been getting. I don't want this to be an ongoing battle for 4 years. |
My issue ended up being the cyl head temp sensor loose in the head.... might wanna check that as well.. |
Thanks, I'll look into getting a new one, mine is really messed up. It has a piece of rubber hose around it instead of shrink tubing and the wire is starting to come off. I don't know why the PO would've used a hose like they did haha. |
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72squareguy
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2013
Posts: 111
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:32 am Post subject: Re: 1970 squareback FI help |
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| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
| 72squareguy wrote: |
| Elguerrogigante wrote: |
I know I'll need a new starter very soon. I smacked it to get it started and it started fine.
The idle was very low so i pushed it up a little and it idled better than ever for some reason. I went around the block and the stutter at high rpms was still there.
Since i finally had it running i checked the relays and connections and found when i tapped the power relay for fi the engine cut out for a second. Could this relay be bad even if i get the click?
I do hear a bit of hissing on the left side by the mps. It's especially loud on when i let off the gas and the rpms dip.
Sorry for so many questions |
That may very well be your problem. As far as I know that sensor is the computers ground.. I could be wrong but I think that's was ray and ktphil said.. Just get a new one. I'm gonna get a new one here pretty soon since theyre still available
Kinda sounds like an issue I'm having. Idles okay but cuts in n out at higher rpms. |
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. I've been looking through d/a/n s post on their 69 square and it's making me a little nervous. Lots of the symptoms they get I've also been getting. I don't want this to be an ongoing battle for 4 years. |
My issue ended up being the cyl head temp sensor loose in the head.... might wanna check that as well.. |
Thanks, I'll look into getting a new one, mine is really messed up. It has a piece of rubber hose around it instead of shrink tubing and the wire is starting to come off. I don't know why the PO would've used a hose like they did haha. |
That's probably your problem right there....
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