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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:00 pm Post subject: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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I'm starting this thread aside from my build thread because it's something I am working on the side that I can add there once it's ready to install and as a sounding board to get feed back as I go along.
Do to the fact that my car's suspension and engine is heavily modified I could not use the original heat exchangers from the exhaust to heat the car. Not that I wanted to anyways but besides that the only thing I've heard about the stock heater is mainly that it just plain sucks for modern standards. I also have always planned on adding air conditioning after the engine is in but I always thought that at some point having a decent heater would be nice since this car will most likely end up in California at some point.
I was thinking about the heater thing when I got my idea. How do modern electric cars get AC and heat? Something like a 2016 Focus Electric.
Well the answer is actually very simple! They use a "Heat Pump" style air conditioner. A heat pump style air conditioner uses a reversing valve to swap the direction of the Freon between the evaporator and the condenser. So in one direction the heat is removed from the inside of the car and dissipated outside. When the reversing valve changes the direction, heat from the outside is transferred to the inside of the car.
The only difference is that instead of an electric compressor I would just use a standard belt driven compressor of the engine. So with the flic of a switch I can have cool or hot air just like a modern car?
Doesn't that make sense? _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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CiderGuy Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2013 Posts: 1351 Location: Bucks County, Pa
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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bluedot wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
Electric heat just won't work. A small space heater is rated at 500 watts, which is 40 amps on a 12 VDC system and 80 Amps on a 6 V.
You don't have a source of current this high on a Beetle. |
I put in a 12v 10k BTU electric cabin heater used for tractors and boats. 60amps. Thing really works! I just use it for defrost, and one vent by our feet. It's enough to defrost the windows as fast as a new car.
Everyone thought I was nuts. Works so good. I did add a 90amp alternator though.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577714 |
The above was discussed in another thread, and I think what bluedot suggested has merit for heat. I would contact Gilmore about the AC and see what he has to say. _________________ ----------------------
Cars Currently Owned:
1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Project car for sale
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (Body off restoration)
Timing is everything |
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crocteau Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2005 Posts: 1204 Location: Philaburbia
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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In areas with mild winters I’ve lived comfortably in houses with heat pumps, but even with high R-value insulation, if you’re going all-electric very far north of the Mason-Dixon line you’ll probably be looking into supplementary heating coils. You don't need an engineer to calculate the thermal conductivity differences between a house and a car. Don't get me wrong, I think you’ll be cool, but I’m pretty sure that with a heat pump you won’t get as toasty as Bluedot (check out her posts), although you might be able to increase overall efficiency by running the cables for the add-on heating coils through your seats. Don't be deterred by nay-sayers; Bluedot surprised a few folks, and you may, too. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Maybe I didn't explain it right. The heater is not electric.
The system is out of an electric car because electric cars do not have hot engine water to create the heat. The heat is created out of the air conditioning system. There is no electric heater element just the Freon gas/liquid for heating and cooling. You cant use the compressor from the electric car because it runs at like 40 volts but you can run a conventional belt driven compressor instead.
Turn on your AC at home and go outside and place your hand on the condenser and you can feel the heat that was removed from your house. If you use a reversing valve you would then feel cold air outside and heat inside.
Here is a example of the reversing valve in each direction. Again there is NO electric heater. So the size of your alternator has absolutely nothing to do with this since the compressor is belt driven of your engine.
In cool mode.
In heat mode.
_________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4026 Location: WA
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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There are gasoline heaters made for VW cars. They work so fast and good you will be driving around in the snow with the windows down wearing your bathing suit. You find them on here and on EBay. They mount in the trunk and use gas from the tank with their own fuel pump. Use a regular VW air conditioner but be aware they add a LOT of heat to the motor as they heat the incoming cooling air to the motor. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Starbucket wrote: |
There are gasoline heaters made for VW cars. They work so fast and good you will be driving around in the snow with the windows down wearing your bathing suit. You find them on here and on EBay. They mount in the trunk and use gas from the tank with their own fuel pump. Use a regular VW air conditioner but be aware they add a LOT of heat to the motor as they heat the incoming cooling air to the motor. |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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kman Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005 Posts: 739 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Go for it. Should work fine. Will reduce your engine power a bit. I found the heat exchangers to work much better than I expected. They certainly keep your feet warm. But having ready AC and heat would be cool (or hot). I would like to see the set up if someone got it working. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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kman wrote: |
Go for it. Should work fine. Will reduce your engine power a bit. I found the heat exchangers to work much better than I expected. They certainly keep your feet warm. But having ready AC and heat would be cool (or hot). I would like to see the set up if someone got it working. |
I have a 2180, dual 48 IDF, web 125 and huge Mofoco 50 heads so power will not be an issue I think. I'm definitely doing it on my car and thought that there are probably a few that might appreciate it. I just don't like exchangers because after a point they become exhaust restrictions and I can't get my head around a gasoline blowtorch in my car _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4026 Location: WA
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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SoCalJes wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
There are gasoline heaters made for VW cars. They work so fast and good you will be driving around in the snow with the windows down wearing your bathing suit. You find them on here and on EBay. They mount in the trunk and use gas from the tank with their own fuel pump. Use a regular VW air conditioner but be aware they add a LOT of heat to the motor as they heat the incoming cooling air to the motor. |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. |
Its not the compressor but the coil that takes the hot air out of the cabin is mounted under the fresh air intake grill on the engine lid. Feel behind any air conditioner, that hot air will be going through your engine 1st then out through the bottom of the car. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Starbucket wrote: |
SoCalJes wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
There are gasoline heaters made for VW cars. They work so fast and good you will be driving around in the snow with the windows down wearing your bathing suit. You find them on here and on EBay. They mount in the trunk and use gas from the tank with their own fuel pump. Use a regular VW air conditioner but be aware they add a LOT of heat to the motor as they heat the incoming cooling air to the motor. |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. |
Its not the compressor but the coil that takes the hot air out of the cabin is mounted under the fresh air intake grill on the engine lid. Feel behind any air conditioner, that hot air will be going through your engine 1st then out through the bottom of the car. |
That would make sense except for the fact that I've never seen anyone mount the condenser on their deck lid... Where did you see that? The ones that I've seen they are mounting them under the car by the transaxle although I'm not mounting mine there. I'm placing the evaporator in the dash behind the radio and the condenser in the spare wheel well. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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SoCalJes wrote: |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. |
Some of the dealer-install kits of the day had split condensers, one under the car and one mounted ahead of the engine cooling fan (!) _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
SoCalJes wrote: |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. |
Some of the dealer-install kits of the day had split condensers, one under the car and one mounted ahead of the engine cooling fan (!) |
Dual condensers! Never seen that either but regardless of what you've seen done wrong none of that applies to what I'm doing. I'm doing a simple tried and true heat pump system that provides modern heating and cooling.
Who knows you might like it and install one _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4026 Location: WA
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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SoCalJes wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
SoCalJes wrote: |
Starbucket wrote: |
There are gasoline heaters made for VW cars. They work so fast and good you will be driving around in the snow with the windows down wearing your bathing suit. You find them on here and on EBay. They mount in the trunk and use gas from the tank with their own fuel pump. Use a regular VW air conditioner but be aware they add a LOT of heat to the motor as they heat the incoming cooling air to the motor. |
You lost me at how an AC compressor heats up the fresh air to the engine. |
Its not the compressor but the coil that takes the hot air out of the cabin is mounted under the fresh air intake grill on the engine lid. Feel behind any air conditioner, that hot air will be going through your engine 1st then out through the bottom of the car. |
Stock AC units from Mexico are mounted there as you need a lot of air flow to cool the hot Freon or the over-temp (high Pressure) switch will trip. Look at any Heat Pump or Air Conditioner outside unit, you will see a giant fan. That's why some mount them under the car (lots of air flow as long as you are moving but not so good in stop & go traffic unless you mount a fan to assist).
That would make sense except for the fact that I've never seen anyone mount the condenser on their deck lid... Where did you see that? The ones that I've seen they are mounting them under the car by the transaxle although I'm not mounting mine there. I'm placing the evaporator in the dash behind the radio and the condenser in the spare wheel well. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Why would I care what anybody did in Mexico who knows when? I don't know what any of that has to do with what I'm doing! What is your point? If you don't like it move on plain and simple. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Go for it, I think it will be interesting!
I don't think a heat pump system will give the amount of heat that would be necessary for those who live in northern U.S. climates but you living in Florida can probably get away with it. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
Go for it, I think it will be interesting!
I don't think a heat pump system will give the amount of heat that would be necessary for those who live in northern U.S. climates but you living in Florida can probably get away with it. |
I thought that too but go to a dealer and try one. The only reason I'm interested in the heat part is because after my son graduates I'll be moving back home to Southern California _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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kiwighia68 Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013 Posts: 2876 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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SoCalJes wrote: |
kman wrote: |
Go for it. Should work fine... |
.. I'm definitely doing it on my car and thought that there are probably a few that might appreciate it..: |
I'm certainly one of those who will appreciate your advice and experience of a simple system for cooling. Auckland - New Zealand has pretty mild winters so I'm not fussed about heating, but I would like aircon for cooling. Gilmore won't deliver overseas and do a LHD model only.
Please post details of your progress with details of the parts and the installation. _________________ Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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kiwighia68 wrote: |
SoCalJes wrote: |
kman wrote: |
Go for it. Should work fine... |
.. I'm definitely doing it on my car and thought that there are probably a few that might appreciate it..: |
I'm certainly one of those who will appreciate your advice and experience of a simple system for cooling. Auckland - New Zealand has pretty mild winters so I'm not fussed about heating, but I would like aircon for cooling. Gilmore won't deliver overseas and do a LHD model only.
Please post details of your progress with details of the parts and the installation. |
Absolutely, that is my intention. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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Volfandt Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2012 Posts: 500 Location: Knox County, East TN
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Great idea. Thought of it a couple yrs ago but someone mentioned the defrost cycle as something to work out and I never got out of the thinking about stage.
On paper it should work and work well. The defrost issue needs to be addressed. I live in the south and have a dual fuel heatpump which works very well until temps drop below 30f at which point the supplemental heat will kick on.
In cold outside temps, the outside coil will freeze up, necessitating the system to divert the hot Freon to the outside coils to defrost them. While this occurs the supplemental heat kicks on. Some systems will run the defrost mode as much as once an hr (dependant on outside temps, and the sophistication of the system), generally the cycle is once every couple hrs.
With the Ghia, we could divert heat from the heat exchangers (if equipped) or from oil cooler. In those cases it may not be necessary to divert the hot Freon and it could continue to provide heat to the cabin. Otherwise we will have to have a supplemental heat source while the Freon is diverted to defrost the outside coil.
In any case carry on.
Dave _________________ 1972 Karmann Ghia, the Dragon slayer.... |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia Heating and Cooling |
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Volfandt wrote: |
Great idea. Thought of it a couple yrs ago but someone mentioned the defrost cycle as something to work out and I never got out of the thinking about stage.
On paper it should work and work well. The defrost issue needs to be addressed. I live in the south and have a dual fuel heatpump which works very well until temps drop below 30f at which point the supplemental heat will kick on.
In cold outside temps, the outside coil will freeze up, necessitating the system to divert the hot Freon to the outside coils to defrost them. While this occurs the supplemental heat kicks on. Some systems will run the defrost mode as much as once an hr (dependant on outside temps, and the sophistication of the system), generally the cycle is once every couple hrs.
With the Ghia, we could divert heat from the heat exchangers (if equipped) or from oil cooler. In those cases it may not be necessary to divert the hot Freon and it could continue to provide heat to the cabin. Otherwise we will have to have a supplemental heat source while the Freon is diverted to defrost the outside coil.
In any case carry on.
Dave |
Dave, that is some great points. I know we have enough people in here to work this out. I like that idea of using hot engine oil in a heat exchanger to heat the Freon. Right now I'm looking through specs for EV cars for components and eventually compare to converting a standard system with a reversing valve. I've even been looking at the components used in heat pump units used for RVs and replacing the 115 VAC compressor with a belt driven compressor. Mainly because of the compact size of the components. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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