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inzel Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2014 Posts: 196 Location: Spokane, WA
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:02 am Post subject: To Subi or not to Subi |
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Hello party people. I recently did a large number of upgrades to my 69 Fasty. I rebuilt the 34 webers, put in a SVDA dist, new tuck away exhaust, new fuel pump, new fuel lines, boiled the gas tank, etc etc. Its a dp 1600 motor.
I am now thinking that I want to really jump up the performance of this car and cant decide whether or not I should put in a EJ25 Subaru motor or buy a turnkey freshly built 2110 VW motor.
The power ratio is not even a comparison... The Subi can get upwards of 300hp easily while the VW motor is maxed out at 120-140.
The cost is about 5k for the new VW motor and about 8-10k for the Subi motor installed including wiring, ecu, radiator, etc etc.
I am looking for pros and cons from people that have gone both routes so I can hopefully learn from your experiences.
Please ask any questions that I havent already answered as Im sure there are a bunch!
Any help/information is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. _________________ --inzel--
66 Bug
69 Fasty
Old school Sandrail |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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Have you considered a Type 4 conversion? IMHO, you almost get the best of both worlds. No it won't put out 300HP, but it also won't cost you $8,000. It would cost more then the same size Type 1/3 engine, but you wouldn't have to worry about full flowing, and external oil coolers. Also, what are you going to do for heat with a subi? Even though the Type 3 heater works really well, The Type 4 is even better. Look at my signature on my build. _________________ 69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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inzel Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2014 Posts: 196 Location: Spokane, WA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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Funny you mention that. I was given a type4 motor from a 83 Vanagon. How do you like yours since youve been running it? I have everything from the fuel injection system to the clutch. Could be a fairly simple swap? Is it a significant power increase? _________________ --inzel--
66 Bug
69 Fasty
Old school Sandrail |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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You won't find an easier motor swap. As far as how I like it? In my opinion this is how the Type 3 should have came from the factory. My motor is fairly mild.
Engine specs: It is a 2L, the heads are 1700 based, but now they have 40 x 36 valves. The heads also have extensive porting and the combustion chambers have been reworked to the Porsche 2.0 shape. My deck height is 0.045", so my compression is 8.6:1. It has a Scat C25 cam (Lift - 0.455", Duration – 272, Duration @ 0.50 - 234), 72-74 heater boxes with thunderbird header, Suzuki Hayabusa muffler, dual Weber 40DCNFs (30mm vents) and a slightly modified Type 1 028 distributer using manifold vacuum.
Its not a racer, but it would take my wife's older Passat. However, her Jetta TDI Diesel will take it. When you start from a stop, it has power NOW. However, the best part of the engine is driving through the mountain ranges. There is no down shifting, and even with a full load (family and gear), I can keep up with just about any modern cars through the hills.
It will cruise at 72-75 mph (that's it happy zone) all day, even in 100 degree + temperature, yet I don't run an external cooler. If I knew now what I know when I built my Baja engine, I would have put a Type 4 in it.
As Far as a comparison to the Type 1/3 engine. It will eat my 2010 Baja (with dual 44 webers & 4:86 R&P), and it will give my 2110 DD a damn good run for the money. Yet with both of those engines I have temp issues on hot days.
Have you read this yet?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight= _________________ 69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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You need to decide if you want to be a VW guy - go to VW shows, fit in with the VW crowd(and for the love of Christ don't pick this statement apart other posters) or be other - a guy with a VW body propelled by a Japanese motor.
If you don't care what people think and want to make your 40+ year old car more modern, flashy, fasty - go Suby.
You want to be a guy that is in it to run the struggle of keeping an ACVW an ACVW then build a badass T4 or T3 based motor.
Personally I could go either way depending on what I wanted at the moment. A modified VW is great fun to take to other make car shows and mess with them. But then again taking an all stock notchback to a hot rod show is a hoot too _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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INzel,
I guess the question that I forgot to ask is, what is the purpose of your car? Weekend drag night and shows? DD or semi DD? One thing to remember, You are always going to have some type of problem or failure with a car, any car. If you keep it T3 or T4, can you do the work your self? if so great. However, if a problem arises with a subi conversion, be prepare for some $$$. You won't be able to take it to Pep Boys to get it fixed. _________________ 69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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inzel Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2014 Posts: 196 Location: Spokane, WA
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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Thanks for the info guys. This will be a commuter car most of the year. Not in winter tho. This wont be a show car at all. Just for fun and commuting to and fro. Since I already a type4 that runs great it seems dumb to not use it.
I appreciate all the advice and tips! _________________ --inzel--
66 Bug
69 Fasty
Old school Sandrail |
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gm4lnch Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: Denver, Co
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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I am guessing the $8-$10k figure on the Subaru engine is because you will have some one else do the install? These swaps can easily be done for less than $2K. I don't even have close to $2K in mine but then again I am building mine slow and shopping for the perfect prices on all the parts. |
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Bryan67 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003 Posts: 2933 Location: Fresno, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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140 horse of air cooled power will surprise you. It will be a lot faster then you think. But it won`t be cheap either. Not if you do it right that is. I`ve owned Bugs with around 160 horsepower and have had no problem smoking WRX STI`s. As far as the type 4 engine goes, I wouldn`t do it. But that`s just me. _________________ If you`re going to do something, do it right. |
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danielzink Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2004 Posts: 282 Location: Lansing Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:20 am Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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I've had a type 4 motor in my Notch since 2000...
Best thing I ever did.
Bolts right up..never lacking power.
It's not a dragster by any means...but keeping up with 75/80mph traffic on the e-way...it's barely breathing hard
That being said...I also have a Subie EJ22 in my sand rail...
Beautiful in it's own right...but definitely took some ciphering to sort cooling etc.
I've got maybe 1500/2000 into the subie conversion - but I also have the luxury of it being a rail and not having to run cooling piping to front of the car and cutting the front apron for vents/boxing in a radiator etc.
You'll do some serious fabrication/cutting to fit a radiator in your Fasty.
I don't judge either way
Dan
_________________ 1965 Notchback 2300cc Type4
Subaru Powered Rail
1915 Rail
www.danielzink.com |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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I take it no one noticed that they replied to a 2 year old thread... |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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Putting a 2.3 T4 motor in my 77 bus with stock FI made a huge performance differance as well. The bus is super quick compared to stock. I often wonder what it would be like in my notch. _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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gm4lnch Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 44 Location: Denver, Co
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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I noticed it was older but it bugs me when people push out Subaru swap numbers that are not even close to the truth. If your spending anything over $3k then your not planning out your build. These build should never cost more than $2500. I am at about $450 and should be firing up the engine soon and will just need to figure out exhaust after the Ebay header and the cooling pipes. I am only counting the cost of the build parts and the profit of the part sold from the donor. If I was to include the sale of my type 3 FI engine then I will have money in my pocket. I figure I will be at about $1000-$1500 when completed. Where can a non-machanic get a 140hp air cooled engine for that price? Plus when done a replacement engine would cost me less than $500. Can't do that with air cooled. |
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danielzink Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2004 Posts: 282 Location: Lansing Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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ataraxia wrote: |
I take it no one noticed that they replied to a 2 year old thread... |
Now the info is out here in case someone figures out how to use the search button _________________ 1965 Notchback 2300cc Type4
Subaru Powered Rail
1915 Rail
www.danielzink.com |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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notchboy wrote: |
Putting a 2.3 T4 motor in my 77 bus with stock FI made a huge performance differance as well. The bus is super quick compared to stock. I often wonder what it would be like in my notch. |
My son really likes his "little" 1.7L T-4 engine in his type 3 Roadster. But then it's got dome pistons in it too. The engine is out of a 914. It all fits under the rear hatch too. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: To Subi or not to Subi |
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danielzink wrote: |
ataraxia wrote: |
I take it no one noticed that they replied to a 2 year old thread... |
Now the info is out here in case someone figures out how to use the search button |
It's been covered plenty of times likely because people don't use the search function. |
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