Running hot

[oasis]

The trouble with knowledgeable people is it's like a foreign language to me and they have to then double as a translator. I'll add more info and observations when they happen.

My new windshield and frame should be painted and installed soon. I will have a conversation with my shop during that time since it's a coordination between us and another shop. Once that's set, I'll put on its new Bimini (some say bikini) top, and install its "new" highback seats (owned for two years but still in plastic). I'll probably put the regular soft top back on for the trip in case of foul weather.

Thanks!
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Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[Bruce]

If you got the oil to 270ºF, I say it's cooked and you need to change it now. Use a 5 or 10W-30, that will bring your temps down.

What is your 4th gear's ratio?
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[74 Thing]

He is running a 3.88 r&p with a .89 4th with 205/70/15 tires Bruce. Gear ratio chart time!

http://johnmaherracing.com/calculators/gear-ratio-calculator/

Ring and pinion is killing you along with the thick oil, restrictive heater boxes and muffler set up, and questionable and possibly restrictive oil system lines. Add to that it is a Thing and the air flow over that car and into the engine compartment is much different than any other aircooled VW and you need to get more air into the engine compartment when running dual carbs.

[ALANSD]

I wanted to chime in ...this thread has been a good one for me who is always learning new stuff about the Thing.
I was at a disadvantage after I bought mine a year+ ago. I did not know exactly what I had and why it was set up the way it was. Was told I had a 1.8 engine, I took note of the large oil cooler and electric fan, the electric fuel pump, the modded suspension and wheel and tires. But not know sh*t about VW as I hadn't owned one since 1972 when I had a Karmann Ghia ( sweet little ride too), I joined here, bought the "book" and studied all the docs that came with my Thing.

My biggest issue was the lack of some engine tin, and noting the car ran what seemed to be pretty hot in Summer weather especially (duh)..
Having read up on it though it seems the temps I was getting were not unusually high and the light never came on the dash. I would check the dip stick heat after a drive and it was touchable. I also added some of the tin from the boxes of stuff I got with it, and I have learned a ton by reading the Samba almost daily.
My steering for example is so much better thanks to the damper install suggestion I got here.

Anyway thanks to this info. on the thread..I know to try the tennis ball thing when I am doing a longer drive in the Summery temps.
Also the "save my bug" deal sounds great.
Mine does well at 65 on the road, but truly I also am more comfortable at 55. The Atlanta rear highways are so freaking crazy, I am not comfortable at any speed in the Thing out there. But I live around loads of great backroads and highway alternatives where I can get to anywhere I need to and enjoy the heck out of it.

Keep the good stuff coming people...a special thanks to those informed, who share.

[Bruce]

[vwwestyman]

I'm jealous of you all who are saying you can run 65!

My Thing tops out at about 55. I can get close to 60 and just kiss 65 on occasion if the conditions are perfect.

I'm running General Grabber tires, 27x8.5x14. Otherwise, I'm certain it is completely stock.

Interesting comments on oil weight resulting in higher temps, something I never had heard before (though it makes sense). I used to always use Castrol 20w50 years ago when I first got into aircooled motors. But since getting into VW diesels as well (and after a break from aircooled cars) I now use Shell Rotella in everything. I figure it is heavier duty, and pretty inexpensive. The Thing and '73 Bus typically get the conventional 15w40 but maybe I'll switch them to the synthetic 5w40 that the TDIs get.

My Thing usually stays in town, but I do drive to a satellite office once a week to meet with my staff there. I have to hurry on the way up, though I can take my time getting home. So while driving the Thing would be fun, it is a little frustrating heading up there.

I do not have a top on it at all, so I am sure that the "aerodynamics" (or lack thereof, ha ha) is likely a big part of my problem.
_________________
Dave Cook

President, Wild Westerner Club

1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing

[williamM]

Hate to bring this up--BUT--has anyone taken a mirror and looked at the fan for obstruction??? OK I'll shut up now-

Learning lots from you guys - keep up the good work-

PS timing at 28* after full advance- that is what is killing a lot of buses.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[oasis]

[74 Thing]

Yeah changing to a smaller tire will increase your RPMs and is a good way to try it out before you decide to change your tranny gearing.

First work with your mechanic and see what he says-also double check the timing as indicated above.

Good luck!

[oasis]

I will talk to the shop very soon. I'm coordinating between his shop and a body shop on an unrelated issue. The funny thing is this engine is similar to the engine he has in his early bug. Mine doesn't have fuel injection and a few other "fun but non-essential items" (as he called them). I had no idea a Thing cools more poorly than a Beetle.

Each tweak will take a chunk out of my day to test because it takes about 45 minutes to get oil temps up to where I don't want to see them.

It's raining this morning but I should have decent weather this weekend to find out a few things. I'll be talking to my mechanic by Tuesday -- maybe even today. Thanks!
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[Bashr52]

That oil line plumbing is quite interesting, its looks like a complicated setup. Where is the filter located?

I would check your temp gauge against a thermometer in the dipstick hole and verify what you are seeing on the gauge is correct. I know due to my sensor being located in the area of an exhaust pipe, it reads about 10-15 degrees warmer than actual.

One other trick you can try is to remove the front piece of engine tin to allow more air into the compartment, or cut a larger hole on the fan side. (not the breast plate, that is critical) This will allow more dirt/road grime to enter the engine compartment as well however.

I have zero overheating issues with the 2232 in my Thing, and it is a much wilder setup than your 2110.

[74 Thing]

Yeah, but yours is slammed with much smaller tires ....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1380006

[Bashr52]

[74 Thing]

One of his problems is he is not turning enough RPMs at cruising speeds to cool everything down properly and it is inefficient, running hot, and lugging the engine. In order to get into the proper RPM range he is running at higher speeds creating even more heat pushing the brick of a Thing down the highway.

The solution to his gear problem is change the tranny gearing or change to a smaller rear tire to increase RPMs at cruising speed.

The gear calculator is a great tool.

[Bashr52]

One other option I just thought of which would be the quickest and easiest thing to try, would be to switch out your generator/alternator pulley with one from a Porsche. They are a smaller diameter and will get your fan RPM's up without having to change gearing or tire size. I think Pelican parts has the pulley and belt you need.

[Bruce]

[oasis]

More stuff coming. I have read everyone's response with keen interest even if this post doesn't cover a particular post. Changing tires are a possibility. Changing to a Porsche alternator pulley is a possibility (would need to know what the heck I was ordering). Changing or modifying tin or anything else is not within a lightyear of my expertise. That sort of stuff would have to be done by someone who knows what they are doing, and that ain't me.

First: The seal around the engine. The seal is as it should be (from my layman's eyes) from as far forward as I can see and reach to just behind the level of where the carbs are. Then, for an inch, inch and a half, around the curve to the back of Thing, and across the back it is different.

Looking down at first glance, it looks fine. At closer examination after I realized it is different, the top and bottom portions of the seal are "over" the edge of the opening that accommodates the engine, but there is no actual seal there. If I pull back on the rubber to see this, I can get my finger through.

Today's drive and observations: My original post had soft top up and all four windows installed. Today was top up but my front windows were out (which I assume is worse aerodynamically.) I also had a tennis ball propping the engine lid open.

My drive today was for a little more than an hour. I went through a work zone digital speed reminder matching pace with a Hummer next to me so I wouldn't be confused as to what reading was for which vehicle. My speedo said 55 when the work zone reminder said 58. After 40 minutes of driving, I pulled over at place that used to specialize in VWs, including air-cooled. My oil temp never reached the 220 hash mark.

I calculated I needed to do 61.6 to actually be doing 65. On the direct route return trip, I got Thing to where I thought I was at 61.6 (actually 65), and my RPMs were smack dab on 3,000.

I decided to take this a step further. I wanted to see what my speed was at 3,500 RPMs. My speedo said 72, so using the same ratio that came out to 75.9 MPH.

The kicker is my oil temp dropped roughly 20 degrees when I did my 3-5 minutes stop (after restarting my engine). Five to 10 minutes into the return trip getting my speed -- and RPMs -- up, the oil temp passed the 220 mark.

Again, I don't want to come off as being difficult but I would have expected the oil temps to have liked the higher RPMs. Also, my perception of lugging seems to be different. Thing seems quite happy at 2,500 RPMs -- certainly nothing close to lugging as I have always understood it. I downshift for braking purposes at similar or even higher RPMs, but I'm closer to 2,200 before I'm thinking about downshifting to prevent lugging or if I want a burst of acceleration.

My goal in the next couple of days is to make an appointment with the place where I stopped for an oil change. I assume the X in XW-30 means any lower number is okay (which jives with what I read about oil viscosity on my Internet Search for Dummies), and I'm not being asked to use a straight 30 weight oil. (10w30 makes sense and it would make it easy on me as I like having spare oil around for all of my vehicles and yard equipment.). I will also get a thermometer to test oil temps versus real oil temps this week.

Would changing the gearing require another "new" tranny, or can gearing changes be made relatively inexpensively? Remember, I would't be doing this.

Thanks, all. Quick edit: I will try to get better pics when I can so some questions can be answered that way.
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[Bashr52]

The tennis ball propping open your engine lid most likely can contribute to most of your temp drop I would imagine.

You can have your trans pulled, disassembled, and re-geared, but it would be faster to just get another box with the correct gearing and swap it in. My vote would be either stick with the tennis ball trick if its doing what you need, and/or switching alternator pulleys to get the fan RPM up.

I'm a fan of the quick, easy, and CHEAP options first before I start going crazy replacing stuff.

[doublecanister]

Hey Guys,

Since the tennis ball did make a difference here,
and I know Mondshine has a special "adaptor" to keep his thing cool,

what would a 12v electric fan do in the engine bay for something like Oasis's issue?

Only reason I mention is i'm working on putting a fan on my old 51 Ford truck for the extra cooling since it's old 4blade fan at Idle don't do much, and reading this made me wonder if something like that would help here.

You can get fans in "pusher" or "puller" types, 12v, and 8inch up to 16 inch.
Some of the ones I'm looking at can do 2000+ CFM.
I'd think a fan like that would get some flow in there to get the heat out?

Not sure how i'd do with the thing moving at hiway speeds, but sitting still in traffic I'd think it would help.

On my 73, If I were to try this I'd probably pick the driver side rear engine vents for fan placement cause the pass side the oil bath air filter is in the way.

I've been looking at SPAL fans for the Ford truck and they do have a broad size selection, used with a relay and a manual switch i'd think it could help
But I've never tried, especially on a VW THING, no idea, Just curious, just throwing that out there.

Anyone ever done this or mucked with electric fans? (on their THING)??

Not sure right now how id' mount it but with the Spal mounting kit I have, it came with 4 feet that fit the fan's plastic shroud and 4 6 to 8 inch long metal strips to mount to the feet and the other end to the vehicle (or in my case my truck's radiator).

I "think" I've seen something VW with one or 2 small fans on the engine lid door with holes behind a licence plate that sit out 3 or 4 inches out from the lid for air flow. I swear it was a VW but I don't remember where I saw it. (if it was a THING or a beetle).

T
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2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8

[oasis]

One of the possibilities mentioned by mechanic today was another oil cooler and a fan -- something he has on his personal 2110cc. He is going to take a look at it starting on the 16th armed with all observations and suggestions. He is running a higher compression ratio on his set-up amongst other things.

Is there a particular Porsche alternator set-up at Pelican I should be considering if we go down that road?

I'm getting a dipstick thermometer or a laser pointer thermometer (or both) soon.

Besides that, I won't have much more to report until after the 16th. Thanks, all!
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI