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oasis
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:21 am    Post subject: Running hot Reply with quote

I realize this is an engine question and there's a specific forum elsewhere on TheSamba for such questions but (1) I don't know if this might be specifically related to it being in a Thing, and (2) I'm looking more for direction and suggestions since I'm not a DIYer and that forum will suggest for me to poke around the engine area with more than a rag to wipe the dip stick. I will ask my shop about it, too, but I want a head start and, again, this may be a Thing-specific thing where you guys may have an advantage.

I have a 2110cc in my '74. It has 400-500 miles since the build. I also got a new transaxle at the same time, and it's more geared like a Beetle than a stock Thing. It has been fun and perfectly adequate (although inferior to the 2056cc Type IV I had in my dearly departed Super Beetle).

I decided to drive it to work today rather than driving the Tiguan or doing the public transportation triathlon. The commute is 60 miles door-to-door, 55 miles of which is interstate.

Everything was fine until I got onto the Capitol Beltway (DC). It was then, I decided to drive 65-70 MPH rather than 50-60 I had been driving. Thing continued to drive very nicely but my oil temp had risen from the 220⁰-230⁰F to about 270⁰F.

I don't know how long it took to get that high, but I increased my speed for 10-15 minutes. I slowed down and within 3-5 minutes, the oil temp retracted.

I have driven Thing as fast as 75 MPH since the build but it was only for a very specific short burst. My concern is if I can go to the show in Ohio, I want to drive Thing rather than pull it with Tiguan, and I'm not sure I would want to stay at 55 MPH most of the way.

If specifics about the engine build is needed, I will try to dig up the build sheet when I get home. Rest assured, I will be driving 55 MPH going home with an eye glued to the oil temp. (Oil pressure was lower but not alarmingly lower. Also, the MPH may actually be higher since I am not running stock tires. I think the Baltimore Beltway clocked me at 62 MPH when my speedo said 57-58 MPH.)
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Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

What is the gearing of the transaxle, what size tires are you running on the back, and was the top and side curtains on or off, and what were you using to measure your temperature?

The Things need more air in the engine compartment when running dual carbs it will starve the fan or air especially with the top down and this can be seen on CHT readings. Propping the engine decklid or making modifications to the front engine tin that goes over the transaxle or to the body to allow more air while driving on the highway is very helpful in addition to have the jetting/timing/tuning dialed in.

Typically oil temp is related to RPMs however. My VDO gauge for oil temp reads some 15-20 degrees higher then actual though.
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oasis
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

74 Thing wrote:
What is the gearing of the transaxle, ...

I would have to look it up. Off the top of my head, I only remember final drive of my so-called "freeway flyer" is 0.89.

74 Thing wrote:
what size tires are you running on the back, ...

I have Yokohama Geolander A/T-S 205/70-15 tires on all four corners.

74 Thing wrote:
and was the top and side curtains on or off, and what were you using to measure your temperature?

Soft top up. Side curtains installed with driver's side buttoned open. My tach, oil pressure, and oil temp gauges are VDO. I do not have a CHT gauge (had a Westach quad CHT gauge on my Super; miss that, too.)

74 Thing wrote:
The Things need more air in the engine compartment when running dual carbs it will starve the fan or air especially with the top down and this can be seen on CHT readings. Propping the engine decklid or making modifications to the front engine tin that goes over the transaxle or to the body to allow more air while driving on the highway is very helpful in addition to have the jetting/timing/tuning dialed in.

Typically oil temp is related to RPMs however. My VDO gauge for oil temp reads some 15-20 degrees higher then actual though.

Propping the lid for specific driving ventures are okay with me. I am not a fan of stand-offs like on Bugs. If there is something I could do when needed, I'd be all for that.

How does one test actual temp versus VDO readings? When they are off, are they off my increments (always the same amount), or by percentages?

Dicking around with the engine tin is something I would leave to professionals or enthusiasts who knew what they were doing.

Thanks!
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

What is your ring and pinion? Is it 3.88 or 4.125?

What rpm range are you running at on the freeway?

To test the gauge you can get a candy thermometer or lost of multi meters have temp gauges that are attached to a wire and you can put it down your dipstick and into the oil and compare it to your gauge reading. You can also take your sender and put it in boiling water and see what the gauge reads. Do a search VDO is notorious for giving inaccurate readings.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

What weight oil are you running? 20w50 oil is notorious for causing high oil temperatures. The VW oiling system will let the oil get hot and hotter until the viscosity drops down to what it wants and it wants thinner oil the faster the engine runs.

Thick oil + high speed = high oil temps. If you are running a 20w50 oil, try a 0w30 or 5w40 oil instead.
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KAmes
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

I had really good luck with the tennis ball prop on my trip last year. It made a lot of difference. I'll be driving to Ohio probably 55 or 60 mph, I don't think I could get it to go over 65.
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oasis
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

74 Thing wrote:
What is your ring and pinion? Is it 3.88 or 4.125?

What rpm range are you running at on the freeway?

To test the gauge you can get a candy thermometer or lost of multi meters have temp gauges that are attached to a wire and you can put it down your dipstick and into the oil and compare it to your gauge reading. You can also take your sender and put it in boiling water and see what the gauge reads. Do a search VDO is notorious for giving inaccurate readings.

I'm 99% sure 3.88. My RPM reading is roughly 2800 when my speedo says 60. I know my speedo is a little off. I'll fetch a candy thermometer this weekend.

Wildthings wrote:
What weight oil are you running? 20w50 oil is notorious for causing high oil temperatures. The VW oiling system will let the oil get hot and hotter until the viscosity drops down to what it wants and it wants thinner oil the faster the engine runs.

Thick oil + high speed = high oil temps. If you are running a 20w50 oil, try a 0w30 or 5w40 oil instead.

I would have to dig up my oil change invoice but I know it is not 20w50 because I ran 20w50 Royal Purple in my Type IV Super, and that caused me to ask. I forgot now what the answer was.

KAmes wrote:
I had really good luck with the tennis ball prop on my trip last year. It made a lot of difference. I'll be driving to Ohio probably 55 or 60 mph, I don't think I could get it to go over 65.

Tennis balls are no problem since my latest injury has me off the courts again. How does one prop the lid without losing the ball mid-trip?

I drove home with outside temps around 83 -- about 20 warmer than in the morning. Except for a pass or two, I never went over 60 and the temp never gave a reading over 250*. If true (and apparently not), it's still warmer than I would want it. Even dropping the speed to a reading of 55 allowed the temp to drop another 15-20 degrees over time.

* Some of my readings are estimates. There is a hash mark for 220 and 260, so 250 is a guesstimate. Same thing for my tach, etc.

I had VDO gauges in my Super. Funny thing is the only one I paid much attention to was the tach and the quad CHT gauge which wasn't VDO. I had no idea VDO gauges were so finicky.
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Bashr52
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

Where is your oil temp sensor located on your engine?
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KAmes
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:39 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

oasis wrote:

Tennis balls are no problem since my latest injury has me off the courts again. How does one prop the lid without losing the ball mid-trip?


Cut a one or two inch slit in the ball and jam it on the hook part of the latch on the door, then the ball rests against the latch plate on the car. It stayed good in my case. You have to admit, if it falls out at 70 mph it will be fabulous in the rear view mirror. It does seem like the first thing would be to verify what the gauge is telling you somehow. I've used one of the "save my bug" dipstick sensors that hooks to the oil pressure light. It's supposed to come on at 225-230, easy way to compare while driving at speed. http://www.savemybug.com/ I'll probably use it driving to Ohio as an extra warning, I'm not really sure about my gauge either. Hopefully your tennis career will recover quickly.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

oasis-

I take a lot of freeway trips in my Thing, and have battled with engine temperature for years.
"By the book" the maximum and cruising speed for the Thing is 68 MPH.
In real life, there are two factors involved; RPM and load.

RPM has a direct effect on oil temperature. The faster the engine is turning, the hotter the oil will get. Wildthings is correct. Oil that is too thick will have the same effect on the oil pressure control piston as cold oil; the oil cooler will be bypassed. (I use 10W30.)
Oil Temperature changes very gradually. Depending on your oil capacity, (deep sump, filter, etc.) it will take some time for the oil to get hot, and take some time for the oil to cool down when you reduce RPM.

Load has a direct effect on cylinder head temperature. CHT changes rapidly, based on load. You can drive up a steep grade at 70, and actually see the gauge needle move. Once at the top, you will see the CHT drop as you roll downhill.

The Thing's "aerodynamics" make for both factors being against you at freeway speeds, especially with the top down.

Getting more cool air into the engine compartment is the answer.
The tennis ball thing is a good way to go, unless you're a crazy nut job like me. I don't want to say any more about that because it upsets GI Joe Wink
I'll show you in Tipp City.
Good luck, Mondshine
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oasis
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:
"By the book" the maximum and cruising speed for the Thing is 68 MPH.
In real life, there are two factors involved; RPM and load.

I didn't get a 2110cc built so I could cruise 70+ all day long. The stock set-up just sounded like it was under great strain if I nudged it above 50. I tend to use terms like "happy" and "unhappy" and Thing was definitely unhappy at 55.

Except for front disc brakes and larger tires, Thing isn't really set up to be a speed demon. As I said, that was not really my intent. I changed everything with my Super Beetle -- brakes, tires, suspension, air dams, the works -- before I started anything with power. It was a bit of a poser with the stock drivetrain, but it still cornered like it was on rails. The engine completed the deal. But I wanted it to be a beast (within some reason).

The set-up isn't unhappy at 70. I know I'm driving a car with limitations, so I'm unhappy at 70 for longer periods of time. I'd still like to cruise 55-65 under the right road and traffic conditions.

mondshine wrote:
RPM has a direct effect on oil temperature. The faster the engine is turning, the hotter the oil will get. Wildthings is correct. Oil that is too thick will have the same effect on the oil pressure control piston as cold oil; the oil cooler will be bypassed. (I use 10W30.)
Oil Temperature changes very gradually. Depending on your oil capacity, (deep sump, filter, etc.) it will take some time for the oil to get hot, and take some time for the oil to cool down when you reduce RPM.

Load has a direct effect on cylinder head temperature. CHT changes rapidly, based on load. You can drive up a steep grade at 70, and actually see the gauge needle move. Once at the top, you will see the CHT drop as you roll downhill.

I know I'm not using 20w50 as I previously said. I don't think I'm using 15w40 which I think is what I think I use in my Golf and Tiguans. Until I ask or look it up, I would be guessing.

I do have a deep sump and filter. Again, I'd have to look at the spec sheet when I get a chance.

Your description of oil temp tendencies match what I witnessed yesterday. Your description of CHT temps is similar to what I remember with my Super.

mondshine wrote:
The Thing's "aerodynamics" make for both factors being against you at freeway speeds, especially with the top down.

Getting more cool air into the engine compartment is the answer.
The tennis ball thing is a good way to go, unless you're a crazy nut job like me. I don't want to say any more about that because it upsets GI Joe Wink

Let's not upset GI Joe. I've learned a lot from both of you.

Conquering Thing's aerodynamics is why I never pursued making a German Look Thing. A Bug isn't the best either but it was doable to a certain degree, and it wasn't a brick either. That's why I went to an Acapulco -- my flip dark side. (Some young doodle yesterday gave me the thumbs-up and said my Thing was "bad ass." I was genuinely entertained with that descriptor.)

mondshine wrote:
I'll show you in Tipp City.

Only work requirements or an emergency will keep me from coming on Saturday at the minimum. I will mail the entry and make reservations this weekend.

Bashr52 wrote:
Where is your oil temp sensor located on your engine?

I'll ask next time I talk to my shop (which will be soon).

KAmes wrote:
Cut a one or two inch slit in the ball and jam it on the hook part of the latch on the door, then the ball rests against the latch plate on the car.

Great! I figured it would be something like that, but I already returned Thing to storage before I read your suggestion.

KAmes wrote:
I've used one of the "save my bug" dipstick sensors that hooks to the oil pressure light. It's supposed to come on at 225-230, easy way to compare while driving at speed. http://www.savemybug.com/

I'll look into it.

KAmes wrote:
Hopefully your tennis career will recover quickly.

My "career" such as it was ended 22 years ago. It doesn't seem to be heading towards surgery so we'll see. Thanks.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

Post a photo of your engine when you get a chance as it now sits installed in your Thing.

Your ring and pinion is not helping you for sure since in at least my case the Thing cools best running somewhere in the 3.4-3.8k RPM range with the top down and lid propped slightly. My R&P is a stock 4.125 while yours is a 3.88.

You should def know what oil and weight you are running and where the sensor is located. Good points by other members that your stock cooler may be bypassed if you are using too thick of an oil.

I regularly drive mine on the highway from 70-80MPH all day everyday. There is no reason you can't either with the proper tune and making sure the engine is getting the air as needed.

Worse case scenario is you may have to add an additional oil cooler down the line.
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oasis
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

74 Thing wrote:
Post a photo of your engine when you get a chance as it now sits installed in your Thing.

Your ring and pinion is not helping you for sure since in at least my case the Thing cools best running somewhere in the 3.4-3.8k RPM range with the top down and lid propped slightly. My R&P is a stock 4.125 while yours is a 3.88.

You should def know what oil and weight you are running and where the sensor is located. Good points by other members that your stock cooler may be bypassed if you are using too thick of an oil.

I regularly drive mine on the highway from 70-80MPH all day everyday. There is no reason you can't either with the proper tune and making sure the engine is getting the air as needed.

Worse case scenario is you may have to add an additional oil cooler down the line.

Transaxle ... Confirmed. 3.88 R&P. Part # 322756 from Mid-America.

Oil ... Still don't know. On most invoices, the viscosity is listed. On this one, the only notation says LoF in 1,000 miles. I know I'm supposed to take it back for an overall look-over, oil change, and whatever at 1,000 miles. I don't know what the oil is or if it is different after the first 1,000 miles. I'll ask tomorrow. (I don't know what LoF means by the way.)

If my tach says it's above 3,000 to where you say is best, my speedo will say I'm in line for another ticket. I understand higher RPMs garners more circulation but I'm thinking (or afraid) it's more load, too. (Never thought about those kind of RPMs in the lower gears. Don't have anywhere those kind of oil temp readings in lower gears either.)

Deep sump has a Type 3 part number -- 311 008 006 -- if that offers any info to those in the know.

Sensor location and pic -- I'll shoot for tomorrow on those, too. I'll try to get a shot of my exhaust while I'm at it. I don't know what kind it is but I'm sure someone here will, and it might help someone on another thread.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

From your response it seems like you had your engine build somewhere and they are still maintaining it. If that is the case let them know it is running hot and what the solution is especially if it is under warranty.

Yes, your ring and pinion is slowing down your rpms. The sweet spot for my car is in the 3.4-4k range while on the highway. I owned a bus and it ran best in the 4k rpm range on the highway. If you are not turning near that in rpms, especially if you are lugging it under 3k rpms, then you are not getting enough air over the cylinders and heads for cooling.

Post those photos from inside the engine compartment and underneath. People are here to help.
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oasis
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

Correct on same shop for all of my VWs since 1988 (occasional exceptions).

Kept conversation short because I had a wide range of subjects and I respected how busy they were today. Besides, they will see me a fair amount over the next few weeks with Thing and other things.

Oil is 10w40.

Oil temp sender is on "output line of the pump" (if I'm reading my scribble correctly).

I think (by sound) Thing is happiest in the 2500-3200 RPM range. I have not pushed it over 4000 RPMs because I only have 500 miles on the build. So far, I have not reached a point Thing is unhappy including at 4000 RPMs (today). I did not do 4000 RPMs in fourth, but I think I would be doing 75 MPH or more if I did.

Here are the pics I took today. Part of the problem with these pics is I like taking pics with a camera, and I haven't owned a camera in at least 20 years. Part of the problem is I'm not exactly sure what emphasis I should be capturing.

right side
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


left side
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


full view
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


full rear
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


exhaust view
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hope this helps.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

I noticed in the first photo that the rubber seal between the engine tin and the body looks a little strange. Normally, there is a lip that belongs under the tin to prevent hot air from beneath the engine being re-circulated by the cooling fan.
Maybe it's just the photo, but is that the correct engine seal correctly installed?

In the last photo you posted, I can't understand the oil piping.
Can you describe:
Where is the hose from the pump outlet going?
What is the diameter of that blue hose?
What is that brass "T" fitting for?
Is that where your oil temp sensor is?
It looks like the blue hoses are connected to a metal tube.
Can you describe that setup (what goes where)?

Just for reference, mine is set up like this:
Ignore the cylinder in the center of the sketch; nobody uses that (except me).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks, Mondshine
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

Go to a lighter oil weigh like 10w30.

What size are your heads and what camshaft and compression are you running? The reason I ask is you have a 2110 with heaterboxes, and that exhaust system is typically used for smaller engines-I believe it is sold by The Thing Shop.... http://www.thethingshop.com/POLISHED-STAINLESS-DIVIDED-HEADER-EXHAUST-SYSTEM/productinfo/181DHS-P/

Is it missing the dogsled tins under the pushrods and the two air deflectors that connect to the cylinder tin at #2 and #4?

I agree the oiling hoses look like they are routed very strange and may be restrictive as well.
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GI Joe
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

I see the sleds in place.....

Oasis, I agree on the exhaust concern... I beleive TTS description states up to 1776cc... Or something along them lines..
You probably need more exhaust flow Out to keep that beast cool...
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oasis
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

I cannot answer most of your questions (which is why I commissioned someone else in the first place).

I can measure the blue hose.

I can only quote from the cylinder head build sheet. It says ...
Head Casting = 044
Port Shape = Unported
Chamber = Stock
Valve Type = SS Supergrip
Intake Valve Size = 40
Exhaust Valve Size - 35.5
Bore Size = 90.5/92
Valve Springs = DS
Retainers = Chromoly
Flycut Depth = 0


Also, 8.25 to 1 is circled without further notation, and I'm 99% sure that is the compression ratio.

Sorry, I can't tell anyone if something is missing or how it's installed. As I said, my pics may be deficient. In fact, they must be given a few of the questions posed.

Trying the tennis ball trick and switching oil surely aren't problems. Changing the exhaust may force me to go with a custom made exhaust.

(1) It needs to exit the bumper.
(2) It can't be too loud.
(3) I would really like to have heat.

#1 is a must. There is only one exhaust I have ever seen that exits in a non-traditional manner that I liked, and that (in my mind) would only be suitable on a Beetle with no exhaust cutouts in its apron.

#2 is subjective. One person's too loud is another person's nice throaty sound. It is safe to assume I will be more like the former than the latter, and my wife even more so. My Super Beetle was louder and it was borderline for me. My wife hated it. She never drove it after the engine swap, and barely rode in it. That's unacceptable with Thing.

#3 isn't a must have but dressing up like Nanook of the North during the winter would only be amusing (to me) if I had the top down one day as a joke. Otherwise, I have gotten less tolerant as I have gotten older.

I wish I could answer some more questions. Sad
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Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI
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mondshine
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Joined: October 27, 2006
Posts: 2765
Location: The World's Motor Capital
mondshine is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot Reply with quote

There will be lots of knowledgeable Thing people in Ohio this July that will be happy to take a peek.
Hope to see you there, Mondshine
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