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DougB
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 1076
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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 Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:06 am Post subject: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Just replaced my alternator a few days ago and specifically did shorten the excessively long + terminal as instructed by past posts here...all was fine for several days and then, this morning, <poof!> and the Alt light is glowing dimly. There was an electrical smell so I checked the fuses first (all ok) and then the little harness tucked up under the engine by the alternator and found it melted in half  really annoying since I really paid attention to this shorting issue when fitting the new alternator. Why on earth would they not give more clearance to the air duct cover when designing this thing??
So I guess I have a few questions now...
- Seems like the alternator needs to come out, right? (Obvious answer seems to be yes)
- Is there a chance that this alternator might still be good, or should I just order a new one?
- What are the odds that the voltage regulator is cooked (new solid-state type)
- does anyone have a diagram (not the VE wiring diagram but something that shows routing, etc.) showing what this alternator harness looks like?
- Thoughts on installing a fuse on this line, and if so, which amperage fuse and on which wire?
What a way to start the first non-rainy day in 14 days :-/
Thanks for your help!
- Doug :-/
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'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Doug - did you notice that sometimes it is the washer that shorts?
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DougB
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 1076
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:31 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Argh, no...do you mean that the stack is too tall with the washer, or that it's not sufficiently insulated (if needed) from the housing?
Just wondering...what's directly behind the cover? If I were to indent the cover to provide a little safety clearance for this terminal, e.g. With the ball side of a ball pain hammer right at the short location, would I be creating clearance issues with whatever might be directly behind it?
I was happy to see the harness easily order able from BD (though it seems straightforward to create)...and if I wanted to fuse the circuit I'd put that on the big red wire, and something big enough to exceed the amp output of the alternator?
Thanks!
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'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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DougB
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 1076
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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OOOOOOh, yes, that explains it! Thanks for the image! I'll look for that.
I am hoping that I haven't cooked/ruined anything more than the wiring harness...I only had a few minutes to investigate, and the alternator wiring harness was obviously melted in half so clearly it took the brunt...but are there other places I should check for damage? Would any of the other wiring be vulnerable?
Thanks for all the guidance!
- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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jtauxe
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Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:57 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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I just installed a new alternator, and was happy to see that it had been manufactured to have a short bolt, so that it would not contact the backing plate. But now I am wondering about that washer... But I don't recall any sort of flat part of the rear cover like that shown in Steve's photo.
So, it is interesting that it lasted a few days. It must have just jiggled just enough to make contact.
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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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I believe there's supposed to be a seal between the alternator and the backing plate. Mine was missing, but I was able to make one pretty easily by tracing the shape of the backing plate. I used this kit and to be safe I used all 3 materials to make one big seal. I also put a little RTV gasket material on the washer to be extra sure it wouldn't rub.
http://www.amazon.com/Harveys-020500-Yourself-Gasket-Kit/dp/B0002YS98E
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DougB
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Joined: January 09, 2007
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Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:20 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Hey!
Yes, looking at the thread I couldn't find before - the one that the alternator image that Steve posted is from - I then noticed the seal myself. I don't remember any kind of seal on mine, so I probably lost a mm or two of clearance right there.
Though I ordered another voltage regulator and alternator just in case (on sale at BD right now and something I didn't already have in my spares stash) I thinking I might have a go at taking it all apart, making my own, new wiring harness and putting it all back together with the gasket and maybe whatever additional clearancing I can do. At least then I'll know if I've done damage to the new regulator and alternator I just put on there.
Just such a disappointing way to start a day, esp after I had made some nice progress on the bus this weekend (new solar panel for the luggage area, packaged up my Renogy flexible panel to send back under the recall, and welded a bung on the new Ernst muffler I'm currently using for a new oxygen sensor (to power a PLX Devices AFR meter).
Thanks again for all of the info!
- Doug
_________________
'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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DougB
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 1076
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:01 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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OK, so the new parts arrive today...any opinions on whether it's even worth the time to work with the alternator that was in there when the short occurred (which was new at the time), or just go to the new one that will arrive today?
Thanks!
_________________
'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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Amskeptic
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Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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| DougB wrote: |
OK, so the new parts arrive today...any opinions on whether it's even worth the time to work with the alternator that was in there when the short occurred (which was new at the time), or just go to the new one that will arrive today?
Thanks! |
Doug, go with the new new alternator and have the old new alternator checked by a reliable shop.
If you do a custom harness fabrication for the alternator to regulator, get your wire gauges correct and make your teminal ends beyond all reproach.
I know you are annoyed with the harness, but it really did work fine when correctly buttoned down according the factory hold down clip on the tin and the nice grommet.
My alternator harness melt on the Road Warrior occurred the day before Thanksgiving in 1980 with my oldest sister and my new girlfriend in the car. It burned the outside of the fuel hose that was routed through the same clip!
Colin
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BayCreamPuff
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:40 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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I'm curious where he harness tends to melt? Or is it totally random along the red wire from B+ on the alternator to the statrer post? Feels like the original path runs a little too close to fuel lines.
When I replaced my alternator I noticed whoever redid the harness last time used the wrong gauge wire, so I ended up using a chunky 6 gauge wire running from alternator directly to the battery positive with an inline breaker.
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Cream Puff
'79 CA Stock FI Deluxe Campmobile
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'87 GoWesty 2.2 Westfalia
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DougB
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Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:06 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Looking up inside the right rear engine area, where you can see the harness, mine melted right at the midpoint where it hangs down a bit, after passing through the grommet in the engine tin. After the incident I looked up in that area and saw the two smoking halves just dangling there
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'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:47 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
| So, it is interesting that it lasted a few days. It must have just jiggled just enough to make contact. |
Takes a hundred miles or so for the paint to wear through. 
Sad we are still having to go through this, Bosch has known this is a problem for over ten years now and they just don't care. There have been hundreds if not thousands of failures and probably several T2 burnt to the ground because of this flaw. |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| jtauxe wrote: |
| So, it is interesting that it lasted a few days. It must have just jiggled just enough to make contact. |
Takes a hundred miles or so for the paint to wear through.
Sad we are still having to go through this, Bosch has known this is a problem for over ten years now and they just don't care. There have been hundreds if not thousands of failures and probably several T2 burnt to the ground because of this flaw. |
we don't know how many other vehicle types that alternator fits and what their issues are. in addition the unit was designed with a rubber boot over the stud, and a gasket. How many of these thousands of failures had both the boot and gasket present? To me it is like the 9 ft lb oil strainer nut. Poor initial design rather than rebuilder issue. Do I worry about it - yes.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| we don't know how many other vehicle types that alternator fits and what their issues are. in addition the unit was designed with a rubber boot over the stud, and a gasket. How many of these thousands of failures had both the boot and gasket present? To me it is like the 9 ft lb oil strainer nut. Poor initial design rather than rebuilder issue. Do I worry about it - yes. |
What boot over the stud? I have taken the cover off of new old stock alternators and there was no boot that I can remember seeing, with the too long stud if you did have a boot the boot would just cut through with time anyway. As for the oil strainer support that would be hard to go back and redesign while the overly long stud is a FUBARed redesign, the original designed worked well for decades. I don't see where it would be asking too much for a rebuilt alternator to come with a warning about both the stud and the washer with some instructions on how to make the necessary modifications for the poorly redesigned parts to fit. For Bosch to tell me it was my fault their alternator burnt up my wiring harness a couple hundred miles after the alternator was installed because I lacked a gasket that they don't tell you is necessary and has been unavailable for decades is nothing but BS. The stud is long enough it is just going to short out if you do use a gasket anyway, it will just take 4-500 miles to wear through the paint on the cover instead of two hundred miles.
If someone looses a $50,000 show bus over this, Bosch better watch out. It will be even worse if Bosch manages to kill someone which is a realistic possibility.
Last edited by Wildthings on Tue May 24, 2016 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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mine had a boot.
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DougB
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Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Well I just got the engine apart to inspect the alternator and sure enough the back cover shorted out on the wide washer… It wasn't even the long stud which I had trimmed… So whoever said wide washer, you win! Now I just need to figure out what I'm gonna do with this alternator…
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'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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Tcash
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Note: fiberglass rectangled shaped insulator pad under wire connection.
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DougB
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Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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Looks like I fixed it (knock on wood). I created a new wiring harness (the retro ones from BD are back ordered) and reinstalled the same alternator and regulator that were in there when the short occurred. Started it up and had 14V at idle like before. I couldn't take it for a drive as it was late but I'm hopeful. I removed the wide washers and created a double gasket between the alternator and cooling tin. Looking through the duct hole it looks like I have good clearance between the tin and terminals.
Fingers crossed! Thanks for all the help!
- Doug
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'75 Campmobile (tin-top to SpaceRoof)
'73 Fastback
'52 BMW R67/2
'41 Zundapp KS600
'55 Puch SGS250
A very, very understanding wife |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: $&@&$ Alternator Terminal :-( |
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here is a photo of the boot.
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