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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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 Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| t3 kopf wrote: |
| Are the Powerflex yellow radius rod bushings thinner than the stock rubber, allowing more adjustment for castor? |
No, same thickness, just a softer compound to allow for full articulation.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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canasync
Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010
Posts: 656
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Canasync, I have had many conversations with Powerflex about the grease that they supply in their kits. It's just not the right product for the job and if the guy you know in Germany was using the Powerflex supplied grease, I don't doubt one bit that he had trouble with squeaking. |
Not sure on what he was using but being a good German I suspect that he used exactly what the manufacturer recommended. Though I do believe he said that he had added extra. I found their lack of support disappointing.
What is the benefit of (or why would someone choose) the Whiteline bushings over Powerflex? Softer ride?
_________________
1987 Syncro
3 knobs
PumpeDüse TDI (17mm Garret Turbo, bigger injectors, stage 4 malone tune, intercooled)
Cruise Control
Remote Start/locks
Custom Lift
Custom Bumpers with receivers
Coast Mountain Hightop - Comming Soon
1985 2wd Vanagon Pre-runner in the making
soon to be powered by 2.5L Subaru
Custom Lift |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:12 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| canasync wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Canasync, I have had many conversations with Powerflex about the grease that they supply in their kits. It's just not the right product for the job and if the guy you know in Germany was using the Powerflex supplied grease, I don't doubt one bit that he had trouble with squeaking. |
Not sure on what he was using but being a good German I suspect that he used exactly what the manufacturer recommended. Though I do believe he said that he had added extra. I found their lack of support disappointing. |
Absolutely! Dealing with Powerflex in the UK directly can be an exercise in frustration, but for the Vanagon owners, I'm bridging that gap.
| canasync wrote: |
| What is the benefit of (or why would someone choose) the Whiteline bushings over Powerflex? Softer ride? |
Actually, just the opposite; Whiteline bushings are a bit stiffer than Powerflex. Whiteline bushings come in at a much lower price point. While I still think they are an excellent alternative to the poor quality rubber replacement bushings, the Whiteline bushings are a bit stiffer, don;t have quite as nice of fitment compared to Powerflex and they have plated steel inner sleeves compared to Powerflex's stainless sleeves. Both Powerflex and Whiteline come with lifetime warranties. From me, this is almost a no questions asked situation (I like to see a photo of the issue if possible, but not a requirement). Have a problem, I'll send you a new part free of charge, no shipping fees. Simple as that!
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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burleymotorsports
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 332
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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With respect to Chris - we're actually having our urethane bushings custom made, not acting as a dealer for someone else.
Ours come in black, with 304 stainless sleeves and fit perfectly.
Ours feature flutes to hold the grease so they don't squeak like the others.
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Last edited by burleymotorsports on Wed May 25, 2016 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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anyone know the nut dimensions for the radius arm ? i know it takes a 27 mm wrench.
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
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1990 vw automatic camper |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:59 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| pushkick wrote: |
| anyone know the nut dimensions for the radius arm ? i know it takes a 27 mm wrench. |
M18x1.5. The rear is a standard nut and the front is a locking nut. I have both of these in stock if you need them.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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t3 kopf
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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So if using a mix of rubber and poly, what kind of lubricant should one use on the rubber bushings? sil-glide? I'm about to do a front end rebuild if its not obvious.
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'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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slo356
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2002
Posts: 365
Location: Central Calif Coast
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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So I am sold on urethane and I am putting an order together.
BUT my question is why don't the manufacturers use urethane at the factory? I know it may be more expensive but that may mean less to especially high end makes such as M-B and Porsche. GT3's or 2's seem like perfect models to run plastic rather than rubber. The benefits for a Vanagon would certainly be true or good for a Carrera?
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'65 T1 Sedan
'87 T3 Syncro |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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since i have been researching the bushing thing i have several question that are bothering me the rubber bushings are a press in fit and very tight and snug. this allows for a settling and stationary placement of bushing which allows for a consistent orientation of bolts and as a result a more consistent alignment. the attribute of rubber to deform and return to its original form is the characteristic that make it work so well in this application. how does the urethane respond to deforming or how springy?
i know rubber is affected by ozone and uv which causes the stiffness and deterioration of rubber. what are the things that effect urethane?
do the rubber bushings have a metal sleeve in them? what are the comparison durometer specs for rubber , powerflex, burley , bushings?
has anyone had urethane bushing wear out ? how long did they last? years/
if urethane bushing are easier to install why doesnt someone just make a rubber bushing that is in two halves with a metal sleeve. you could even use a c clamp then to install each half simultaneously. why not cut the rubber bushing in half and install?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6833
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:58 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Finally found time rebuild the front suspension with T3's Powerflex urethane bushings.
I had been waiting to find time as I'm a little bit busy. So I lined up a spare set of upper, lower control arms and steering spindles so it would just be a straight swap as I did not want to wait getting the control arms sandblasted and painted.
Also had T3's replacement anti-roll bar already on the front from a while ago.
So now I was finally able to put the new alloys and Nokia tires on the front since I knew the front was worn out and did not want to start the tires to wear prematurely.
The ride definitely did improve now with all the new bits on the front.
No more swaying in the wind from the passing big rigs on the highway!
Of course...coming out to the Vanagon in this morning to find a flat passenger front from a screw imbedded in the tire...less than a hundred miles on the tire. %$%$#^%$ !!! |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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Just back from a 3000km road trip from Minnesota to Niagara Falls and then back by Ontario.
The Powerflex steering rack bushings that I installed from T3 Techniques just before the trip have been proven to be the best upgrade I've yet done to the Van.
Day and night change from before where I was constantly correcting the steering in wind and at speed to arrow straight directional stability. This is with 14" BFG KO tires on factory alloys and a Thule Sonic XXL rocket box and 140 watt solar panel mounted to my 1985 Westy!
Yes those factory bushings were trashed (deteriorated from an old ps fluid leak) but still....
That upgrade was worth every penny and will be ordering the rest of the Powerflex bushings shortly.
Thanks again Chris!
Gruppe B |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| Quote: |
| the rubber bushings are a press in fit and very tight and snug. |
And so are some urethane bushings. It all depends on the design and application.
| Quote: |
| this allows for a settling and stationary placement of bushing which allows for a consistent orientation of bolts and as a result a more consistent alignment. |
Not necessarily true! Rubber sags, takes a set, etc just like urethane bushings can. Generally speaking, urethane bushings hold the suspension in better alignment than rubber.
| Quote: |
| the attribute of rubber to deform and return to its original form is the characteristic that make it work so well in this application. how does the urethane respond to deforming or how springy? |
That's an incredibly difficult question to answer with any meaningful data since there are many, many different compounds of both rubber and urethane. If we are simply comparing the stock replacement Vanagon rubber bushings with the current line(s) of urethane, the current line of replacement rubber bushings is less "springy" than the original factory rubber bushings. Urethane bushings can be made very soft and springy with lots of "memory" or very stiff and unforgiving. Since a stiffer material moves less, but that does not mean that it does not return to it's original shape after being deformed. If the urethane being used in suspensions didn't have any "memory" so that it can return to its original shape after being deformed, it would be useless. Whatever material is used for suspensions has to have some amount of softness and memory in order to function as a bushing and still provide a good ride quality as well provide consistent suspension component location to maintain alignment. Most urethanes being used for suspension bushings provide this to some degree or another.
| Quote: |
| i know rubber is affected by ozone and uv which causes the stiffness and deterioration of rubber. what are the things that effect urethane? |
Urethane is not generally affected by ozone, grease or oil whereas rubber is affected by all three.
| Quote: |
| do the rubber bushings have a metal sleeve in them? |
It depends on the bushings design, but it sounds like you have a bushing design in your head like that of the Vanagon front lower control arm bushings and the rear trailing arm bushings, so we will use those for the example. For those locations, the rubber bushings do have metal sleeves in them and those sleeves are bonded to the rubber.
| Quote: |
| what are the comparison durometer specs for rubber , powerflex, burley , bushings? |
The Vanagon replacement rubber bushings that I tested were about 85A (that's pretty hard for a rubber bushing). An old stock original rubber bushing that I tested was about 70A. Powerflex yellow bushings are 70A and their purple bushings are 80A. Burley's bushings tested at 90A.
| Quote: |
| has anyone had urethane bushing wear out ? how long did they last? years/ |
I have had a couple of customers rebuild and regrease their front suspensions and when they pulled the upper control arm bushings apart, they was some minor wear on the inside. There was not enough wear to cause any play, but just enough that you could see it. These guys were hard core travelers and off roaders, so with the high miles and extreme conditions that they see, this doesn't surprise me at all. However, on my personal 2wd daily driver, I have well over 100,000 miles on my Powerflex UCA bushings and there is no play and they perform the same today as when they were installed new. And as for the bushings that showed some wear, that is covered under the lifetime warranty program so a complete new kit was shipped to them free of any charge.
| Quote: |
| if urethane bushing are easier to install why doesnt someone just make a rubber bushing that is in two halves with a metal sleeve. you could even use a c clamp then to install each half simultaneously. why not cut the rubber bushing in half and install? |
If were are using the Vanagon front lower control arm or rear trailing arm bushings designs as examples, the stock style rubber bushings have a metal inner sleeve to be bonded with the rubber, as mentioned earlier. If the inner sleeve was a separate part, it would rotate inside the rubber. In order to prevent the inner sleeve from squeaking and wearing away at the rubber, it would have to have some form of lubrication. Since grease that is compatible with rubber isn't all that water-washout resistant, it would be difficult to keep a rubber bushing of this design quiet for very long. Since urethane is much more resistant to chemicals, heavier duty grease can be used with the separate sleeve/bushings design to prevent squeaking.
I have never heard of anyone trying to cut a bonded rubber/metal sleeve bushing in half to make it easier to install, so I can't comment on that.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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much appreciation for the detailed answers and comments chris you are very thorough. thanks for taking the time to comment on each aspect of the bushings questions i mentioned.
so from what i understand the rubber bushing (rear trailing arm and lca) dont actually move once it is installed it(the sleeve and rubber together) just rotates with trailing arm/lca around the bolt. the only rubber that actually rubs against metal is the flange between the trailing arm and the mounting bracket. so the main wear point is the flange and sleeve to bolt.
so with the urethane bushings, the bushing could rotate in the trailing arm/lca and bushing to sleeve could rotate and sleeve to bolt could rotate and of course the bushing flange to mounting bracket rotates. so should all of these places be greased? is polyurethane self lubricating material?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| Quote: |
| so from what i understand the rubber bushing (rear trailing arm and lca) dont actually move once it is installed it(the sleeve and rubber together) just rotates with trailing arm/lca around the bolt. the only rubber that actually rubs against metal is the flange between the trailing arm and the mounting bracket. so the main wear point is the flange and sleeve to bolt. |
If you look at the shape of the stock style rubber bushings, you will see that they are tapered on the ends so that not much rubber rubs against anything.
When the rubber is pressed into the arm, it locks onto the metal so it does not rotate inside the arm. Since the bolt that holds the inner sleeve in place keeps the sleeve tight and prevents it from turning, the only way the bushing can move is to twist along the axis of itself. This creates resistance in the bushing and forces it to act a little like a mini spring. Believe it or not, you can actually feel the difference in the stiffness of the suspension when you run a set of bonded rubber bushings back to back with a set of urethane bushings. This is because the urethane bushings can rotate freely and contribute nothing to make the control arms harder to move up or down.
| Quote: |
| so with the urethane bushings, the bushing could rotate in the trailing arm/lca and bushing to sleeve could rotate and sleeve to bolt could rotate and of course the bushing flange to mounting bracket rotates. so should all of these places be greased? is polyurethane self lubricating material? |
Sleeve to bolt does not rotate after the bolt has been tightened all the way. But yes, any part of the urethane bushing that touches anything but air needs to be grease well and needs to have the proper grease used. Not all grease is appropriate for use with suspension bushings since some greases wash out with water and break down quicker than others. Use only the grease that the seller recommends to ensure reliable, long lasting quiet operation of the bushings.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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what is the bolt size for the rear trailing arm
what is the bolt size for the front lca?
do you need to have a 10.9 hardened bolt?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12007
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| T3 technique sells the bolts too, just put them in your shopping cart and push the buy button along with whatever other bushings you need. |
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kalispell365
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2010
Posts: 889
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:44 am Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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I just installed a handful of Chris at T3 Whiteline bushings, and am going to install more. I cant comment on the ride as I haven't driven yet BUT I can say that his service level is second to none. He has gone far above and beyond to take care of me.
THANK YOU, I sure appreciate it!
Robert.
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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is there a video for installation of the powerflex bushings for the lca or rta?
or any urethane lca or rta bushings?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper |
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7473
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| pushkick wrote: |
since i have been researching the bushing thing i have several question that are bothering me the rubber bushings are a press in fit and very tight and snug. this allows for a settling and stationary placement of bushing which allows for a consistent orientation of bolts and as a result a more consistent alignment. the attribute of rubber to deform and return to its original form is the characteristic that make it work so well in this application. how does the urethane respond to deforming or how springy?
i know rubber is affected by ozone and uv which causes the stiffness and deterioration of rubber. what are the things that effect urethane?
do the rubber bushings have a metal sleeve in them? what are the comparison durometer specs for rubber , powerflex, burley , bushings?
has anyone had urethane bushing wear out ? how long did they last? years/
if urethane bushing are easier to install why doesnt someone just make a rubber bushing that is in two halves with a metal sleeve. you could even use a c clamp then to install each half simultaneously. why not cut the rubber bushing in half and install? |
W. T. F.
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7473
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: urethane vs rubber suspension bushings |
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| pushkick wrote: |
much appreciation for the detailed answers and comments chris you are very thorough. thanks for taking the time to comment on each aspect of the bushings questions i mentioned.
so from what i understand the rubber bushing (rear trailing arm and lca) dont actually move once it is installed it(the sleeve and rubber together) just rotates with trailing arm/lca around the bolt. the only rubber that actually rubs against metal is the flange between the trailing arm and the mounting bracket. so the main wear point is the flange and sleeve to bolt.
so with the urethane bushings, the bushing could rotate in the trailing arm/lca and bushing to sleeve could rotate and sleeve to bolt could rotate and of course the bushing flange to mounting bracket rotates. so should all of these places be greased? is polyurethane self lubricating material? |
W. T. F. v 2.0
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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