urethane vs rubber suspension bushings

[pushkick]

i have read several threads about the urethane bushings and the rubber bushings and i am wondering how much is sales hype and how much is real use experience. there is quite a bit of price difference for a complete front end set and i am wondering if it is worth the money for the urethane given the existing rubber bushing have lasted 20 years and 260,000 thousand miles. are the urethane bushing made in germany or us or uk. is there more than one brand?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper

[insyncro]

Go drive a van with urethane installed.
Feel the difference.

[canasync]

You will most likely get most replies saying that urethane bushings are the best thing since sliced bread. However, a friend of mine in Germany who is an Audi tech and grew up in a family of automotive professionals gave me some feedback about his dealings with Proflex. After having his front upper control arm bushings squeek for the second time after a re-lube in less than 60,000kms he got in touch with Proflex to ask for replacements wondering if his may be defective. After a few conversations with them Proflex concluded that there was nothing wrong with the product and that he simply needs to re-lube them when they squeek. I read a very similar story on a performance import site a while ago from a guy in the US.

My friend, as well as many other German vanagon guys have gone back to rubber bushings due to the squeek issue and lack of support from the manufacturer.

As for the ride, there is indeed a difference in the performance of the suspension. There will be less 'give' in the bushings thereby the van will have less roll and an overall sportier feel but also a bit of a harsher ride. That being said, keep in mind that your comparison should be a van with newer rubber bushings, not one with 260,000 miles on it

Having a lifted Syncro I myself will probably be installing the urethane bushings on the lower front control arm and rubber everywhere else.
_________________
1987 Syncro
3 knobs
PumpeDüse TDI (17mm Garret Turbo, bigger injectors, stage 4 malone tune, intercooled)
Cruise Control
Remote Start/locks
Custom Lift
Custom Bumpers with receivers
Coast Mountain Hightop - Comming Soon

1985 2wd Vanagon Pre-runner in the making
soon to be powered by 2.5L Subaru
Custom Lift

[ThankYouJerry]

^^^ Good review.

I have 100% PowerFlex bushings and would not go back. The ride is far from harsh and indeed much tighter (sportier). I have had some minor squeaking issues (which can also happen with rubber), but I'm strongly starting to believe that the squeaking isn't the upper control arm bushings it's more likely the rubber bushings on the shock mounts!

Regardless, the PowerFlex power steering bushing alone made as much, if not more, of an improvement in handling (cornering, crosswinds, etc) than upgrading my wheels and tires from stock 14" to 15".

Contact Christopher at T3Technique. He sells both PowerFlex and Whiteline bushings. Phenomenal customer service.

[61Scout]

Urethane, hands down. The best thing since sliced bread, lol.

Yes, it's true they can squeak, but lubricating is easy and the performance gains far outweigh this minor annoyance, imo. Also, I'm not sure rubber is what it used to be. Much like we are seeing with window and door rubber, the quality of rubber seems to have gone done over the years. I'm not sure why this is the case, perhaps environmental reasons? I not only see this with VW, but every manufacturer. Plastics seem to have gotten better, rubber seems to have gotten worse. Then again, I have no evidence... this is simply my observation.

Another consideration of the urethane vs rubber debate, would be that of performance longevity. New rubber may be great, but over the course of the years urethane will hold up and perform better/closer to its original install quality. I know powerflex offers a lifetime warranty, not sure about whiteline. And yes T3 is the place to buy.

-Kevin
_________________
1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
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-Nec Spe, Nec Metu

[furrylittleotter]

I replaced a bunch of bushes with new "quality" rubber (oem?) and they failed in very short order. They definitely did not last 30 years. So I put in urethane by default.

I pray my van can 60,000 km between squeaks.


A guy can dream.


Neil2

[?Waldo?]

[Christopher Schimke]

I think you all probably know where I stand on this subject, but I would like to say (again) that I have about 100,000 miles on my daily driver with Powerflex bushings installed and the ride quality is better than with the stock rubber bushings and is dead quite with the same grease that was originally put there when I installed them. This is not hype at all; it's the honest truth.

The number one reason for squeaking is either the wrong grease or not enough grease. The grease that Powerflex supplies is not adequate in quality or quantity. This is why I recommend CV2 for use with the urethane bushings.

I completely agree with those what have said that urethane bushings can be harsh and they can squeak. It is 100% true of that many of the urethane bushings on the market do result in a harsh ride quality and it's true that using the wrong grease can lead to squeaking, but it's not universally true of all urethane bushings.

Canasync, I have had many conversations with Powerflex about the grease that they supply in their kits. It's just not the right product for the job and if the guy you know in Germany was using the Powerflex supplied grease, I don't doubt one bit that he had trouble with squeaking.
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*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]

[pushkick]

is there anyone who has a van near dayton ohio that has urethane suspension bushings installed? what effect does the radius arm bushings have on the ride if you install them with urethane bushings?
_________________
i see said the blind man to his deaf dog
i am going to quit smoking and drinking and die a healthy man. gotta laugh
there is no deed to the planet earth
1990 vw automatic camper

[Christopher Schimke]

[sailboat100]

Another benefit to powerflex. Because they are split they are much easier to install and if they do squeek down the road, much easier to re-lube.
Brian

[j_dirge]

Most every original rubber bushing I pulled off my van (a 1989 with close to 200k on it now) was in excellent shape and had many many years of service left.

That said.. I did a fairly complete overall of both front and rear suspension.. and I ended up with a mix of rubber and urethane (Proflex as well as other brands)

Urethane:
1. UCA bushings, front. For me personally.. the urethane Profelx UCA bushings were a must... and pricey, IIRC.
However, the rubber aftermarket ones were crap... and nothing is pricier than having to re-do a job only 12 mos later because parts failed.
2. Steering rack urethane bushings.. probably gave most bang for buck. Relatively cheap.. and immediate performance gain.

A mix of both:
3. Anti-roll bar clamp bushings. My over-sized aftermarket anti-roll bar in front uses urethane in the main clamps.. biggest advantage is they fit properly!.. but these ones squeak (not Proflex) and require a re-lube after winter... or repeated wet travels. Endlink is in rubber (new) And I have downlink bushings in rubber and a set in urethane.. No noticeable difference between the two. Stuck with the rubber ones, for now.. May swap out next time I tear down in there for whatever reason.
4. Rear anti -roll bar.. Also all urethane.. never had rubber there.. Couldn't tell you if there's a difference.

Good ol' rubber
5. Rear control arms. I have urethane in the rear swing arms.. Couldn't tell you the difference between them and the original rubbers. (My rear anti-roll bar does so much back there that I think it renders that bushing nearly un-noticeable.. either way)

6. Radius rod bushings rubber. Replaced with new rubber. No complaints.
7. Lower control arm front.. main bushing rubber replaced rubber. I can;t imagine this one being a big difference.
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[DAV!D]

[insyncro]

[syncrodoka]

I was quite skeptical about the squeak from experiencing crappy poly bushings in busses and bugs.
I have burley motorsports and powerflex lower control arm and trailing arm poly bushings in different vans for years and haven't noticed squeaking.
I have been running poly steering rack bushings since '10 and they haven't made any noise at all but the improvement is noticeable.
Poly radius rod bushing kit replaced the always smashed rubber bushings and they haven't been an issue. I took apart the front end of the van the other day and noticed that the poly bushings(year old) are still in great shape, the new rubber replacements on the truck got smashed and distorted quicker than expected.
I have no experience with poly bushings in any other position. I chose to install poly in those positions as that are what holds the alignment in spec. and will carry the van down the road square.
Poly bushings are much easier to install than stock.
My truck got all new rubber bushings and the ride improved dramatically from the OG bushings, the poly bushings provide the same ride.

The GF comments on how well the hardtop syncro drives without knowing what suspension upgrades have or haven't been done(stock except for the poly bushings listed above). Her comparison experience is from her '91 GL that rides quite nice, I always enjoy driving that van.

[RichBenn]

I second the steering bushings and anti-sway to be poly, and judiciously used elsewhere. Depending upon whether you want a firm ride that works well on nice roads or a little softer for more comfort, pay attention to the hardness of the rest if going all poly. And use the CV-2 grease.
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Rich

[Christopher Schimke]

[slo356]

Chris, It appears that your new Syncro sway-bar comes with Whiteline bushings??

If this is true can the Powerflex be substituted? Would there be a mechanical or performance benefit for this change from your kit listing in the online catalog?

I am after a comfortable ride on largely segmented concrete highways subject to crosswinds and occasional wash board dirt roads; medium weight 7-passenger '87 Syncro with 16" CLK's, stock springs, EMU shocks (which I am not too sure about).
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'65 T1 Sedan
'87 T3 Syncro

[Christopher Schimke]

[t3 kopf]

Are the Powerflex yellow radius rod bushings thinner than the stock rubber, allowing more adjustment for castor?
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'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion