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A Few Wiring Questions
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ArthritisMaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

And I have no idea why my post was posted twice. Surprised
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Are you checking the wiring colors for the position on the relay bridge of the fuse box?
There should be four wires connected to the flasher relay:
    white wire (#49) - power from E-FLasher switch
    brown wire (#31) - ground wire
    blue + blue/red (#49a) - two wires connect to the OUTPUT of the flasher relay

If you have the flasher relay plugged into the relay bridge and the wires below the relay are NOT the above colors you have it installed in the wrong place.

The door buzzer has only two wires, a red (#85) constant 12v wire from fuse #9 and a grey (#86) ground wire from door switches.


BTW, 11.5v at the battery means it is basically dead. Electrical devices have a minimum voltage. Below 12.0v things stop working as they should. Charge or replace your battery.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Ashman, I have in fact removed the wires from the bridge and that is how they have been as I have been experimenting with the relay. I reviewed the colors again and they are in the correct area. This is the relay I purchased: http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/191953227A. The battery is brand new and I have not been using the car at all besides the electrics so that would explain it being at that voltage. Do you think that maybe the voltage from the battery has something to do with the noises the relay is making? Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

You mentioned earlier in the thread about swapping the #31 wire to a different terminal on the flasher relay. Is the brown ground wire now on the #31 terminal of the flasher relay where it belongs?
The only reason I can think of for your door switch to control your flasher relay sounds it because you grounded the #31 terminal of the flasher relay to the wire that runs to the door switch. This will ground the flasher relay when the door is open.

Have you run the test where you run a jumper wire from a constant 12v+ fuse on the fuse box to the 4-way junction for the black/green (right) and black/white (left) wires? This should light up the corner lamps one side at a time... solid, no blinking.

Confirm the black/green/white wire from the #49a terminal run to the E-Flasher switch and the turn signal switch. The blue/red wire runs to the turn signal indicator in the speedo (which should be disconnected until you have everything working.


11.5v at the flasher relay #49 terminal may be too low to properly test the flasher relay. Best thing would be to charge up your battery until is can hold a 12.6v charge.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Ashman, yes I conducted the 12 volt test to the four way connection and if I recall, only the right side lit up correctly and after swapping some wires, the front left one did as well. Regarding the door switch/buzzer issue, the 31 is grounded on the relay but not to the door switch as it is the beginning of that long chain of grounds that goes elswhere. As I said, I conducted a test after my FLASHER relay started making the BUZZER relay when I turned the turn signal to the left(nothing came on when it was on the right). The test included taking the door switch ground to 31 on the Flasher (normally 86 on buzzer) and seeing what noise it made. The noise was the relay click. The wire on the 49a terminal of the flasher relay is basically two wires: solid blue and blue/red. The blue/red runs to the speedometer turn signal indicator properly. The solid blue wire goes to a connector where the green/white/black wire goes to the turn signal switch as well as the hazard switch. I blew a fuse today whilst the car was not even on because I wiggled my hazard switch which is, according to your diagnostics, internally ruined.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

So you have a few problems.

The door switches are grounded by the switch body being screwed into the door frame. The grey wire coming off the door switches are switched ground used to turn the door buzzer and dome light ON. The other terminal on the door buzzer relay is #85 and should be connected to a red constant 12v source (fuse #9). This grey wire connected to the #86 terminal of the door buzzer should NOT be used for a ground wire. If necessary, run a new (brown) ground wire to one of the ground points behind the dash.

Of the #49a wires, disconnect the turn signal indicator bulb. This bulb will cause problems while troubleshooting. Once you have everything working, THEN reinstall the bulb and make sure everything still works. For now, just remove the bulb from the bulb holder and re-install the empty bulb holder into the speedo.

It wasn't clear of ALL the corner turn signal lamps were working. You need two 21W bulbs on the right and two 21W bulbs on the left. The flasher relay only works properly when it is powering 21W x2. Less than this and the flasher relay will quick flash to indicate a bulb has burnt out. Are all your corner lights now working when you directly power them?

Your E-Flasher switch appears to be bad. You may be able to open the back by carefully bending the tabs that hold the back on the switch body. Carefully open the internals and flush it out with contact cleaner / brake cleaner. Let it dry them re-assemble. Often, you can bring the switch back to life.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, just to be clear, I do not have the key buzzer, I just performed the test to see why the flasher was making the buzzer noise. Also with the grey wire... I have that connected to just the door switch and nothing else at the moment due to lack of buzzer. The only other item it is connected to I believe is the seat belt interlock system. The bulb in the indicator is blown anyway but I will remove it! As for the bulbs in the corner lights and tail lights, they should say the 21W on them when removed correct? If not, how does one tell if they are? Since the bulbs do not flash at all, I would assume that they are not receiving power from the relay but are from the normal light switch? I have already taken apart the E Switch but I did not clean it, I just bent back the contacts on the top a little and wiggled it around. Would I have to take the physical (little brown) unit apart?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I do not have the key buzzer, I just performed the test to see why the flasher was making the buzzer noise. Also with the grey wire... I have that connected to just the door switch and nothing else at the moment due to lack of buzzer.

Ok, how about we ignore the door switch and buzzer circuit. I'm not sure how you could use this switched circuit as a test for the flasher relay?

ArthritisMaster wrote:
The only other item it is connected to I believe is the seat belt interlock system.

Hmm, I didn't think the '73 Beetle came with the seat belt interlock system? I thought this was a '74-only system? (Maybe some of the early '75 had them as well?). Any chance your '73 is actually a '74 model year? Does the VIN start with 113 or 114?

ArthritisMaster wrote:
The bulb in the indicator is blown anyway but I will remove it!

Ok. That saves the trouble of testing around this bulb. Do the Oil and Gen lights still work?

ArthritisMaster wrote:
As for the bulbs in the corner lights and tail lights, they should say the 21W on them when removed correct? If not, how does one tell if they are?

The bulbs should have some marking on the metal body. At a minimum, you should find the model#. The earliest dual filament bulbs were #1034 but were replaced with #1157... which were replaced by the #2057 bulb. Depending on when they were last repaired the part#s may be different.
Often you will find the voltage and wattage marked as well (12v 21W). Dual filament bulbs will have both filament wattages (12v 21/5W). Some of the more recent replacement bulbs will be 23W or 25W instead of 21W. The VW flasher relay is load sensing and should work fine with a slightly higher watt bulb.
LED replacements are a problem. While they are just as bright as incandescent bulbs they draw less wattage/amps and will give the flasher relay fits. If using LEDs you typically need to switch to an aftermarket EP-35 flasher relay which is LED compatible.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
Since the bulbs do not flash at all, I would assume that they are not receiving power from the relay but are from the normal light switch?

You mentioned both of the right side bulbs turning ON when you wired 12v directly to the 4-way junction. But on the left side only the front bulb turned ON. That tells me there is a problem with the wiring ir bulbs. Fix this first before you try to get the flasher relay working.
The parking lights are powered from a separate circuit. At the rear, the turn signal lights are a separate bulb. At the front the turn and parking lights are different filaments in a single bulb. Either way, they are separate circuits. Just cause the parking lights work doesn't mean the turn signal bulbs aren't blown.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I have already taken apart the E Switch but I did not clean it, I just bent back the contacts on the top a little and wiggled it around. Would I have to take the physical (little brown) unit apart?

Carefully remove the brown backing or the switch and see if you can see what the problem is. If the backing plate is loose the switch will often have trouble.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Ugh, my text was all deleted! Evil or Very Mad But, I will rewrite what occurred today! So here is a paraphrase of what I wrote to answer your questions: Yes, my car was manufactured in Feb. 73' and the VIN starts with 113, I have maybe confused the seatbelt interlock system for just the fasten seatbelt light on the dash that connects to the seat belts and the transmission. All bulbs are 21W and the filaments are good. Oil and gen lights work. I have cleaned the E flasher but I noticed that there maybe contacts in there that are missing. Keep in mind that I now have the 49 wire running directly from the fuse box since it is not getting power from the E switch. Before when I turned the switch, all the turn signal lights would come on solid. Now, again, it just makes the key buzzer noise. I will upload a video later and show you what exactly is happening with the noise. But hey, we are making some progress! Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

ArthritisMaster wrote:
All bulbs are 21W and the filaments are good. Oil and gen lights work.

Good.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I have cleaned the E flasher but I noticed that there maybe contacts in there that are missing.

I'm assuming you mean you cleaned the E-Flasher switch internals?

ArthritisMaster wrote:
Keep in mind that I now have the 49 wire running directly from the fuse box since it is not getting power from the E switch.

Ok, so you have bypassed the E-Flasher switch and the flasher relay is powered by the fuse box directly.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
Before when I turned the switch, all the turn signal lights would come on solid. Now, again, it just makes the key buzzer noise. I will upload a video later and show you what exactly is happening with the noise. But hey, we are making some progress!

Have you completely disconnected all wires from the E-Flasher switch? Make sure they are not touching anything.

Confirm the noise is actually coming from your flasher relay.
With the flasher relay buzzing...
    Remove the brown #31 wire. It is a ground wire and as long as it doesn't touch a live positive connection it can fall free. I think the flasher relay will continue to buzz.

    Disconnect the #49a wire from the flasher relay. The buzzing should stop.

    Touch the #49a wire to the #49 wire which is powered by the fuse box. Tape or rig them together. Check that your right side bulbs light up solid when you signal a right turn. Check that your left side bulbs light up solid when you signal a left turn.

If the above works as described, you probably have a bad flasher relay. I know, new ones should be good, but this isn't always the case.

You may want to try checking w/ the local FLAPS and see if they have a generic EP-35 flasher relay which is LED compatible. These are good replacements for the stock flasher relays and are future compatible in case you upgrade to LED corner lights. They look like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

They are made under MANY maker names: Tridon, Trico, Novita,
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

I do have a novita flasher and it looks like that one, but it did not work... maybe I should try it again to see if it will get better results. I did clean the brown unit inside the E switch if that is what you mean. I have not disconnected all the E flasher wires, is this what I should be doing? I am positive the buzzing comes from the flasher since when I hold it, I can hear it closely and feel the direct vibration. I was also fiddling with the connections below the steering column and when I moved them around, (only the turn signal wires), I found that when I turned the signal switch, it would light up either my running lights or my turn signal lights in my rear taillight depending on the wire moved and the direction the switch was.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I have not disconnected all the E flasher wires, is this what I should be doing?

The E-Flasher switch and the turn signal switch share the OUTPUT wires that power the corner turn signal lights. If the E-Flasher switch is somehow grounding the L or R wires (possible if the internals of your E-Flasher switch are messed up) it can effect the way the turn signals work. Disconnecting the wires from the E-Flasher switch isolates the turns signal switch from the E-Flasher switch.


ArthritisMaster wrote:
I was also fiddling with the connections below the steering column and when I moved them around, (only the turn signal wires), I found that when I turned the signal switch, it would light up either my running lights or my turn signal lights in my rear taillight depending on the wire moved and the direction the switch was.

This sounds like a problem with your tail light wiring. There is nothing in the steering column that would cause your parking lights to turn ON (headlights maybe, but not parking lights). Your turn signal lights and parking lights in the tail light assemblies are separate circuits, but they do share the same ground. When the parking lights are OFF, it is possible that the turn signals will ground backwards thru the parking light circuit. But this is not controlled from under the steering column.
Have you done anything strange with the stock tail light wiring? You might want to check the tail light ground connections. They are inside the left and right sides of the engine compartment. There should be a brown wire that connects to the "shelf" on either side of the engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Ok, I think what you said about the E flasher grounding the wire is right because when I did the +12V to the green 4 way connection, the wire coming from the hazard switch zapped and gave me a small burn, I disconnected it after that but I was finished testing for the day Shocked . Now, I am running the original harness and I have not done any modifications besides splicing and such. In fact, I believe I disconnected the wire from the hazard switch and tested it after that with the same results, I will check it out today. The taillights, every time I moved a wire in the steering column seemed to change from running light to turn light when I moved the turn signal switch, I would have to compensate in the engine compartment by switching the tail and turn light wires back there each time it happened. But they still light up a solid light. I will test the relay with your other supplied instructions and tell you how that goes!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

OK, so I put in the novita flasher and my right turn signal and light in the dash flash properly! First time they have flashed ever! However, only the right corner light flashes and makes the relay click, when I turn it left, nothing happens. But... when the headlights are on and I pull the switch back, it clicks the headlights normally, but this time I can turn the switch to the left and it flashes the HEADLIGHTS! And yes, it flashes them both when it is switched to the left.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

Go back and bypass the turn signal switch once more. Connect the #49a OUTPUT of the flasher relay to each of the 4-way junctions and see if you get both the left and right sides flashing as expected. If this works, then your turn signal switch is the culprit.

Some have found that if you tighten the four hold down screws for the turn signal switch too tight you get intermittent or failed switch functions. Try loosening the hold down screws and see if you get consistent functionality from your turn signal switch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

So would loosening the screws a bit not make the headlights flash, and Ashman, do you know what may have been causing the headlights to flash in the first place? At the fuse box where the headlights plug in, I found the voltage fluctuating there at the source. The only issue is, how are the headlights getting the flasher relay power? Thanks! Also, my hazard switch flashes and makes the relay click like normal when pushed in but does not activate the four ways?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

ArthritisMaster wrote:
But... when the headlights are on and I pull the switch back, it clicks the headlights normally, but this time I can turn the switch to the left and it flashes the HEADLIGHTS! And yes, it flashes them both when it is switched to the left.
<...>
So would loosening the screws a bit not make the headlights flash, and Ashman, do you know what may have been causing the headlights to flash in the first place?

When I first read this I thought you were describing "flashing the headlights" as in when you pull the turn signal level towards you and the headlights "flash" high and then go low. But now i realize you mean the headlights are somehow wired into the flasher relay!

Look at the wires coming from the turn signal switch. You should find two or three brown wires.
    brown/white wire - this wire starts from one of the contact leaves at the base of the turn signal lever and connects to the headlight dimmer relay "S" terminal.

    #1 brown wire - ground for the headlight dimmer. This wire runs from ground to the other brass leaf at the base of the turn signal lever. When the lever is pulled this wire will ground the "S" terminal of the dimmer relay.

    #2 brown wire - this provides the connection between the horn (-) wire and the steering wheel. The brown wire is connected to the horn. The other end of the brown wire is the large brass "ear" on the face of the turn signal switch. It contacts the ring on the bottom of the steering wheel. Eventually this circuit is grounded thru the steering column.



ArthritisMaster wrote:
At the fuse box where the headlights plug in, I found the voltage fluctuating there at the source. The only issue is, how are the headlights getting the flasher relay power? Thanks! Also, my hazard switch flashes and makes the relay click like normal when pushed in but does not activate the four ways?

I'm wondering if somehow the left turn signal wire is somehow cross connected to the brown/white wire which activates the dimmer relay? Sometimes this could happens internal to the turn signal switch. If you have a VOM meter you could check if there is continuity between the black/white wire and the brown/white wire. This shouldn't be the case.


ArthritisMaster wrote:
Also, my hazard switch flashes and makes the relay click like normal when pushed in but does not activate the four ways?

When you push the E-Flasher switch IN (ON) a few things happen....
    The source of power for the flasher relay is switched from #15 to #30.

    Flashing power coming from the #49a terminal of the flasher relay into the #49a terminal of the E-Flasher switch is shorted (connected) to both the L and R terminals. This powers both sides of the turn signals.

    The lamp inside the E-Flasher knob is also powered by the flashing power coming from #49a. It grounds thru the #31 terminal of the E-Flasher switch. Even if you disconnected both L and R outputs the knob lamp will flash. In the later E-Flasher switches this knob lamp is also powered by the dash illumination circuit while the switch is OFF and the parking lights are ON.

It sounds like there is a disconnect between the L and R terminals of the E-Flasher switch and the 4-way junctions that go to the left and right turn signals. Check these wires.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

So I took out the brown/white wire from the column and I turned the signal to the left, nothing happened. After this I turned on the headlights from the light switch and tested it like this: I pulled back the dimmer switch, nothing happened since it is not grounded. I then grounded the wire from S on the dimmer to the steering column bolt and it clicked the flasher and the light on the dash showed up and I had the same thing only this time, I had to hold the ground to keep the flashing going. I did not see any connection between that brown/white and the left white/black wire. Somehow, the left turn signal is directly wired to the dimmer relay and the flasher?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

So I may have a bad wire! The white/black wire received 13 volts at the site of the switch and around .3 at the other end. I will see what happens when I replace or redo the wire.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: A Few Wiring Questions Reply with quote

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I turned on the headlights from the light switch and tested it like this: I pulled back the dimmer switch, nothing happened since it is not grounded.

Since the brown/white is disconnected from the dimmer relay "S" terminal, this sounds normal.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I then grounded the wire from S on the dimmer to the steering column bolt and it clicked the flasher and the light on the dash showed up and I had the same thing only this time, I had to hold the ground to keep the flashing going.

So you grounded the brown/white wire coming from the turn signal switch and then the flasher relay starter to click? That is weird!
Look at your turn signal switch. Find the tow brass leaves at the base of the turn signal arm:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

At rest, these two leaves should NOT be touching. I had to periodically tweak the brass contacts to keep them apart. When you pull on the lever you force the two leaves to come in contact with each other. The other leave should be connected to one of the brown wires coming off the turn signal switch. Make sure this other brown wire goes to a ground source.
I'm wondering if the two leaves are in constant contact and this brown wire is actually running to the turn signal circuit somewhere ? This would wire the dimmer relay in to the turn signal circuit.

Remove the turn signal switch assembly and look closely at the wires to make sure there aren't any frayed wires touching. Some folks have had trouble with aftermarket turn signal switches that shorted or grounded connections inside the switch. Sometimes they ground to the four screws that pass thru the switch body. Try removing the switch and the screws and see if the short between the dimmer circuit and the left turn circuit goes away. You may be able to insulate the screws or body of the swuitch w/ tape.

ArthritisMaster wrote:
I did not see any connection between that brown/white and the left white/black wire. Somehow, the left turn signal is directly wired to the dimmer relay and the flasher?

You could also try removing the left turn signal wire from the collection of wires in the turn signal "tray" so it is disconnected. Then run your tests again. This would tell you if the left turn signal switch is shorted within the turn signal assembly, or somewhere downstream in the wiring.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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