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Santos
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

So I've lurked this forum for some time (years), trying to learn little things on the outside when I had my first 68 Bay Window Bus. Lost that one and years later I've picked up another similar Bus... this time with a sunroof but no engine, transmission, interior, doors, dash... it's a shell, guys. I picked up a shell. This project is going to take a few years, that I'm aware and prepared for. But I have plans.

Anyway, too long of a story to explain why, but I'm planning on doing a Subaru engine swap into my latest 68 project. Now, after spending some time reading and bouncing around threads, I've realized how touchy some VW communities get when discussing this, but you can't blame some of us for having a more new-school flare. My problem is I can't find a person in my area(s) to share information with in person the way you would usually expect when being part of a club, scene, organization, etc. Aside from readings and personal efforts, it'd be great if I could find active members who are willing to make friends and share their experiences with this type of build in a hangout type fashion, meeting in person. No matter the vehicles... just looking learn about the Subaru swap process from the people who have gone through it.


Background on me: I have an EJ22 engine, harness, ECU, odometer cluster... I'm moving along slowly but focused and moving on to whatever tasks lay ahead next in the overall project build. The patient is a 1968 BayWindow Kombi, walk-through, with a sunroof. I plan to lower, but not slam (unless I fall for it later in the build). I welcome idea of cutting for fitment so long as the overall exterior is preserved.

So what say anyone. Let's hang out?

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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

ditch the EJ22...go 2.5 99 or newer. and yes, you will get some hate, but it's your bus. I find it funny that when I do them for clients all the keyboard hero's chime in with the "devalue the bus" b.s. yet these same guys are putting in oil coolers, turbo's etc...but its "ok"....I look at them as a resto mod, and properly set up are 1000% easily reversible.

it's a great way to make the car more user friendly with a broad range of easy to find parts. I have stopped giving advice on the forums due to the flare up's you speak of. re-gear your transmission, or don't do the swap. Subaru's don't like to be a 4K at 65.

good luck. you'll be happy when you're done!
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Santos
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

Ditch the EJ22? But I just got it! Complete Phase 1, and super cheap too. With all the components. I've read so much that it's the ideal engine, despite the fact that many use the EJ25 due to it's availability. Anyway, yeah there's a lot of hate for lack of purity. But I'm more into custom rebuild rather than classic restore.

Interesting thing you mentioned about the transmission. that's one of my next topics to look into. Other than the adapter plate, I can't find any solid info on what's needed, if anything, to be done to the transmission for things to run properly. I've gotten the idea that it's basically good to go once adapted. I guess not?

This is why I like meeting people in person, to bounce info back and forth effectively.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

Since you have a Bay you should go over and hang out there and read up. Skills has done a few build threads and has gone over what it takes to make one work.
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Santos
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

I've actually bookmarked just a few threads on this forum for reference. I'm not a master mechanic, but I tend to read over information until I generally understand things. Skills seems to have, well... skils. haha. I'll make sure to pay a little more attention to some information he's shared. His EJ25 build thread is amazingly clean.

My whole thing with this thread, really, is looking for people here in the Los Angeles and OC areas that I can connect with in person. It's great to have that interaction factor, and it's always nice to have a neighbor you can exchange with.

Too many times, the VW guys I meet either don't know, don't care, or talk shit because I'm not praying to the air-cooled gods. Even most of the shops in my area are strictly air-cooled restoration, not much custom/swap support. I'd like to skip the "it's no longer an aircooled VW" and "why not just buy a subaru if you like it so much" comments. Hopefully I can meet some Californians nearby who I can hang with.
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Santos
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
ditch the EJ22...go 2.5 99 or newer.


EJ25 would be OBDII, right? I remember someone telling me it'd be a bitch to register if I do things a little off if it's a OBDII system, which is why I jumped on this deal I found for the EJ22. Other than that, I think the EJ22 is slightly smaller. What are your reasons for going EJ25 instead?

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
re-gear your transmission, or don't do the swap. Subaru's don't like to be a 4K at 65.


This is where I'm still completely ignorant. I've seen people use adapter plates with their stock trannies. I think I saw a thread where someone used the actual transmission off the same Subaru Legacy they got their engine from.

I'm not necessarily looking at what's cheapest. I'm more interested in what works best. This project is, at minimum, a five year plan... maybe 10 Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

Subarugears has the stuff to convert the subaru tranny if you want to go that way, or you can buy a very expensive gearbox outright from them if you want. for the cost of the adapter plate i would consider just putting in the subaru tranny for the extra money, since you need different ratios built up in a type 2 tranny anyway.

already have the engine, with all the little meaty bits? keep it. ej22 engines are nice too. ive been in a bus with one, and it was a great driver.
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

problem with OBD1 (depending on your year EJ22) is that it's a bitch to data log, and it is not as user friendly as the later OBD2 cars. if you're going to do it, I suggest a OBD2 swap.

if you are on FB there are several Subaru powered conversion groups. problem with that is it's all a bunch of back yard guys with a handful of us that have a clue....so many jump in and get way over their head.

shoptalkforum is more Subaru friendly and some pretty smart guys there too. the biggest problem is people ask the same questions over and over and a lot of us have simply given up trying to help.

best advice I can give you is read until you go cross eyed, and ask educated questions....stuff like "how do I make the harness" is usually ignored. it's not that folks don't want to be helpful, it's just that people come in, ask questions, never post the "fix" and the cycle goes on. it gets pretty old answering the same 6 questions over and over.

the EJ22 is a good engine, but it's management system in OBD1 form is like that of a FI bug/bus/T3....works, but kind of outdated globally, OBD1 was just a blip on the automotive diagnostic map....go obd2 and be happy
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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cdennisg
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

I am curious about something, Skills. Why the need to datalog a stock engine? My wife drives a 95 Soob Legacy with 220K and an EJ22. Never had a need to datalog anything, and have used the OBDI port a few times to diagnose a knock sensor and temp sensor failure.

I have an EJ22 OBDI waiting for my first swap experience...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

take some of the $$ you saved on the motor + the adapter $ and apply it to a Subaru 5spd trans http://www.subarugears.com/
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
I am curious about something, Skills. Why the need to datalog a stock engine? My wife drives a 95 Soob Legacy with 220K and an EJ22. Never had a need to datalog anything, and have used the OBDI port a few times to diagnose a knock sensor and temp sensor failure.

I have an EJ22 OBDI waiting for my first swap experience...


Because...in the case of your wifes car....that is the original engine in the original chassis with original weight distribution, tires, gearing and chassis.

Put the same engine in a chassis where all of that is different and there will be tuning that needs doing. Without data logging....its a lot more guesswork and trial driving. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
I am curious about something, Skills. Why the need to datalog a stock engine? My wife drives a 95 Soob Legacy with 220K and an EJ22. Never had a need to datalog anything, and have used the OBDI port a few times to diagnose a knock sensor and temp sensor failure.

I have an EJ22 OBDI waiting for my first swap experience...


Because...in the case of your wifes car....that is the original engine in the original chassis with original weight distribution, tires, gearing and chassis.

Put the same engine in a chassis where all of that is different and there will be tuning that needs doing. Without data logging....its a lot more guesswork and trial driving. Ray



and I would like to add.......

when you have a CEL it's nice to monitor o2 activity, injector pw, MAF/MAP sensors....all keys into unlocking the CEL or drivability issue.

I had a car once that would run like a bag of shit for about 1 minute. long story short, the ECT sensor had a glitch in it during warm up. I was able to record data and review it. saw that the ECT went from 180 to -60 for about 45 seconds and fuel trims went deep into the negative as it was trying to pull fuel

with OBD1, you just can't monitor much
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

^^^ Good info. Thanks. I don't know what each acronym means yet, but I will.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

So as far as I can tell, you need to notch the fuel tank fire wall for a 2.5, Have you figured if you need to modify the divider wall in a single cab? Bus fire walls are almost a dime a dozen( at this time), but those truck divider walls not so much.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
So as far as I can tell, you need to notch the fuel tank fire wall for a 2.5, Have you figured if you need to modify the divider wall in a single cab? Bus fire walls are almost a dime a dozen( at this time), but those truck divider walls not so much.


trucks have a different configuration. it would be easy enough to clear that without damaging the truck. trucks are just different enough to make it all work..... working on that solution as well as ecu location speak. just not posting in the bay forum for the conversions anymore. the client declined doing a thread seeing all of the b.s. that usually follows my conversions.

the next thread will be for adding a/c to a Subaru powered bus. other than that, Subaru conversions will most likely not be posted here unless the client really wants a thread made
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
babysnakes wrote:
So as far as I can tell, you need to notch the fuel tank fire wall for a 2.5, Have you figured if you need to modify the divider wall in a single cab? Bus fire walls are almost a dime a dozen( at this time), but those truck divider walls not so much.


trucks have a different configuration. it would be easy enough to clear that without damaging the truck. trucks are just different enough to make it all work..... working on that solution as well as ecu location speak. just not posting in the bay forum for the conversions anymore. the client declined doing a thread seeing all of the b.s. that usually follows my conversions.

the next thread will be for adding a/c to a Subaru powered bus. other than that, Subaru conversions will most likely not be posted here unless the client really wants a thread made


Skills,

You should consider starting your own business web site to market your business. This way, you could document or share the conversions you're doing (with your clients ok) for others to see. I doubt purists would visit this site to complain about the conversions.

I'm a purist but I respect peoples decisions to change their engines if that's their wish. There's a VAST difference in high quality conversions (yours) and some of the spectacular engine swap hackery you see on this site and others.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

baby steps Laughing

seeing I am doing well enough with Volvo/Subaru service I do the conversions as "filler" work so to speak. there are days here that I feel I need a bigger shop as it is.

the problem with that is my labor rates would soar. even being almost 30/hr below the 100 mark, I still have people bitch about costs. granted, no one wants to put $$ into their cars, but honestly I make less per hour than I did at the dealer. my stress level dropped and my quality of life went up doing what I am doing.

I agree, I DO need a website. just trying to find someone reasonable to work with on that has been a challenge for sure. then there are "growing pains" and trying to find staff that holds my values and work ethic up high. those guys are far and few between. as much as I would like to, I just can't train a guy to do it like I want it done. that, and the first cell phone I saw out while I was paying someone would land me in jail as I would shoot it out of their hand.

getting off my soapbox now Cool
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
baby steps Laughing

seeing I am doing well enough with Volvo/Subaru service I do the conversions as "filler" work so to speak. there are days here that I feel I need a bigger shop as it is.

the problem with that is my labor rates would soar. even being almost 30/hr below the 100 mark, I still have people bitch about costs. granted, no one wants to put $$ into their cars, but honestly I make less per hour than I did at the dealer. my stress level dropped and my quality of life went up doing what I am doing.

I agree, I DO need a website. just trying to find someone reasonable to work with on that has been a challenge for sure. then there are "growing pains" and trying to find staff that holds my values and work ethic up high. those guys are far and few between. as much as I would like to, I just can't train a guy to do it like I want it done. that, and the first cell phone I saw out while I was paying someone would land me in jail as I would shoot it out of their hand.

getting off my soapbox now Cool



I have seen more than a handful of plants and shops....who have struck a decent balance between...purporting to care about employees insufferable lives Laughing ...and keeping those damn cell phones out of hands.

They made a phone locker box out of wood (or metal in some places)...and I have even seen one professionally made phone locker box.

What they had on two of the nice ones I saw was each locker was about 6" x 6" and about 10" deep (sorry no tablets). It had a plug for your charger in the back. It was next to the time clock in view of the office.

Employees plugged their phone in and locked it in the box when they clocked in.

The deference management made toward the miserable lives of their employees (full of ex wives, kids that get sent to the office for fighting and any number of serious personal family calls)...was to allow employees to wear one design of approved bluetooth headset attached to their phone as long as it was machine safe.

They could answer calls from their own , but not make them unless they had their phone set up for voice command....and no texting or web surfing until you are on break or lunch. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

Correct me if im wrong but the throttle body and sump wont need to be modified if u use the Subi gearbox as the engine will sit higher and further away from the firewall.
Well as long as it isnt slammed Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Subaru Swap Group POW WOW Reply with quote

ray, 100% brilliant! companies after my own heart. you're here to work, not fuck off on my dime. that's the way I was taught. employers with no cluster between their legs wonder why #'s are down and stuff isn't getting done....




lolight70 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong but the throttle body and sump wont need to be modified if u use the Subi gearbox as the engine will sit higher and further away from the firewall.
Well as long as it isnt slammed Very Happy


true. but not everyone has the add'l 5K+ for a reversed rotation Subaru box. slammed cars have bigger problems than a Subaru conversion would introduce....those clients are far and few between
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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