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'78 FI westy won't start
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

But you should hear the fuel pump run when the key is turned to the start position even if the starter is dead (unless it's got one of those split solenoids with the separated second spade terminal that only energizes when the solenoid closes).

Sounds like it's time for a test light or volt/ohm meter.
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kguarnotta
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

I was thinking I should hear the fuel pump or something.

I have had weird starting issue in the past. Not very frequent, but sometimes when I would go to start the bus, I would turn the key - and it would not turn over, but I would hear a whirring type noise. I would then try again, and usually on the 2nd try the starter would engage, the engine would crank and start.

Now that I am having this problem, I am thinking that noise I heard before was probably the fuel pump. So now, I am not hearing anything. I think I do have one of those split solenoids - as it has two small wires going to it, and one big wire. I guess one goes to the fuel pump, and one to the ignition - and the big wire goes to the battery. Just to be clear - if the solenoid is bad, then the fuel pump would not engage, so I woudn't hear anything when I turn the key, am I understanding that correctly?

My next step - in the morning, I'm going to disconnect battery, then remove the big wire from the starter, clean all those connections, and start checking voltage at that starter/solenoid connections with the key in the ON position and off.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

If you were hearing a faint whirring noise before but not now I'd be more suspicious of the ignition switch.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

kguarnotta wrote:
I'm going to disconnect battery, then remove the big wire from the starter, clean all those connections, and start checking voltage at that starter/solenoid connections with the key in the ON position and off.


You are going to get a big fat "zero" with the battery disconnected.
Colin
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kguarnotta
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

Yeah, I know to reconnect, I just don't want to go disassembling and cleaning around the starter with voltage present. I'll reconnect battery after the cleaning. Don't have a lot of time, as I'm supposed to go out of town for work in the morning, but if I get up early enough, I can get some done, and back to it when I return.

Too bad I can't take my bus - which is what I planned on taking.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

Keep double checking all wiring was put back properly and is clean, it worked before....

Try a new ignition switch ***Chinese part WARNING*** whether you go good german or cheap China stuff, you could pull the plug under the steering column that it plug into and plug in a new ignition switch and turn it gently with a screwdriver to see if a new switch get you anywhere before you go disasembling the steering column to get it installed
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kguarnotta
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

I disconnected the wires under the ignition switch, then took an old switch I had, attached, turned screwdriver - and nothing. Well - the dash lights came on, but that is it. Next step will be to clean at starter, then remove starter.

Actually is there a way to remove ignition switch, and just put a jumper into that connector - is bypass ignition switch? If so - what two wires do I want to connect?

OK - Further update.
I took off all the connections at the starter. I cleaned them up with a dremel/ & brass brush. The spade connectors appear dirty, and are encased in plastic, not sure how to clean those good.

I retested - after reconnecting battery. Nothing.

I then put key in on position, and tried shorting the starter - and it turned over and started. By sorting I put a jumper between teh big stud and the connection with the red and black wire (as opposed to the red and white wire).

So this bring me back to the ignition wiring, right?[img]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a pic of the wiring at my starter (before cleaning). I am leaning towards one of the plastic covered push on connectors being dirty. I'll see if there is some way I can clean that. [/img]
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kguarnotta
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

I cleaned up those plastic covered connectors as best I could - a bit of Deoxit, and a mini dental pick to scrape them out.

Still no go.

Then I took the ignition wiring out of the dash, and shorted between 30 & 15 - dash lights come on. Then I jumped from these two over to 50 and nothing. This make me think there is a problem between this 50 connection and the 50 connection on the starter. So either a bad wire, or bad crimp somewhere, or a cut wire.

So next step, try to replace this wire.

I disconnect red/black wire at starter. Run a new 12 gauge wire outside the bus from the 50 terminal on the starter up to the ignition switch. Then I shorted between 30 & 15 at ignition switch, and jump over to this new long wire - it starts right up. So my conclusion - bad wire or connection between 50 at ignition switch and 50 at starter. Now I've got to find where the short actually is - but I may just put a momentary switch in for a temporary starter.
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'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

kguarnotta wrote:
I cleaned up those plastic covered connectors as best I could - a bit of Deoxit, and a mini dental pick to scrape them out.

Still no go.

Then I took the ignition wiring out of the dash, and shorted between 30 & 15 - dash lights come on. Then I jumped from these two over to 50 and nothing. This make me think there is a problem between this 50 connection and the 50 connection on the starter. So either a bad wire, or bad crimp somewhere, or a cut wire.

So next step, try to replace this wire.

I disconnect red/black wire at starter. Run a new 12 gauge wire outside the bus from the 50 terminal on the starter up to the ignition switch. Then I shorted between 30 & 15 at ignition switch, and jump over to this new long wire - it starts right up. So my conclusion - bad wire or connection between 50 at ignition switch and 50 at starter. Now I've got to find where the short actually is - but I may just put a momentary switch in for a temporary starter.


Please don't. I see these temporary push buttons and toggle switches and wires draped all over the country and they are so unnecessary and diminish the value of the car dramatically. Just follow the paths and you will see where the interruption is.

The last late model bus that I removed the ignition toggle and the push button starter switch and the red wires all over the place, merely had a not-fully-seated eight terminal molex connector on top of the steering column bracket under the dash. You have to look inside each hole to make sure the spades are fully seated . . . both sides of the connector block.
Keep diagnosing,
Colin
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kguarnotta
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

GOT IT - almost.

I traced the black/red wire from the ignition switch to the starter. I found T8 (on the wiring diagram). This is an 8 point connector, right under the dash. Upon inspection, this looks a bit grunky.

I am not able to get connectors out - but I sprayed some DeOxIt into the connections, then some compressed air - and it now works.

Next question - I would like to take this 8 point connector apart to properly clean it, it does not seem to want to come apart, and I don't want to break it. Any suggestions on taking it apart?

Thanks.

Sorry- I just see your post colin. The momentary switch was just to allow me to drive, as I really would like to have my bus for work today. Colin, how do I take that molex connector apart. I think some wiper fluid or something may have leaked on it at some point...
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

would a Lisle 56500 Terminal Tool work for separating the molex connector under the dash?
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

I have that tool but found it easier to Use a small cotter pin to get the spades out.
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

What about separating the two halves of the Molex connector, do I just pull them apart? I tried, but it didn't seem to want to move, and I was afraid the brittle plastic would break. I could squirt some lubricant/silicone between the two pieces to get them to separate, but was wondering if there is something that is physically holding them together that I cannot see.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

I don't recall a clip holding that one together, 2 pairs of larger channel lock or waterpump pliers should grasp it solidly for a good pull.
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

Next question - I would like to take this 8 point connector apart to properly clean it, it does not seem to want to come apart, and I don't want to break it. Any suggestions on taking it apart?
Spray it with some WD-40 and gently work it back and forth. The wd40 will clean and lubricate the terminals and connector.

Once you get it apart DeOxIt.

Good luck
Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: '78 FI westy won't start Reply with quote

Just to update you all -
Got the 8 point molex adapter apart. Carefully pulled the wire connectors out - thanks for the tip on using a cotter pin.

I used a dremel and brash brush to clean all the connections - then put it back together with some deoxit spray.

Bus starts right up. Thanks for helping me trouble shoot it, and prevent me from getting into buying a new starter!

While I was at it - I cleaned the parking brake light switch - which always seems to be blinking on and off, and the door jamb switch (now dome light comes on when you open passenger door) as well as some grounds I saw under the dash.

This helped a bit - but the parking brake light keeps blinking. I've got to find the other end of those wires - something must be loose somewhere.

Again - THANKS for helping me narrow down and find the problem.
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Lincoln, MA

'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper
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