car not starting up...?

[summer25]

Hey everyone!
I am new here and finally got myself a 1963 bug named "Penelope". She's a classy lady and was well taken care of. At purchase the guy charged up a car battery, installed it and she turned right on. She idled and ran great. I brought her home and bought a new correct 6v battery and she isn't turning. A friend of mine came over and jump started the battery with jumper cables and she turned right on. So my question is where do you think the connection is going wrong? I originally thought it was the ignition switch because the keys I got were about to snap. It did in the ignition and I was able to get the piece out and got a copy made. The new key fits and the car turned on with it when it got jumped so now I don't think its the ignition switch. I just ordered the "How to keep your vw alive" book but until it comes in I need to get it started per storage rules she has to run. Anything I can troubleshoot until then to get parts ordered if need be? This is my first vintage car and I am eager to learn all her mechanics. My last question would be in which direction should the switch be left when turning the car off? Left or middle? I'm starting to think I may have drained the battery somehow? The wipers and lights do turn on if that helps narrow anything down. I greatly appreciate any help and will post pictures soon!!

[57BLITZ]

Welcome to The Samba Summer!
Can we be sure that Penelope might have been converted to 12volts at some point?

[bugheadred]

did you charge the new battery ? and my guess is that the battery is draining some how I would charge the battery and unhook it when it is in storage

[arizonabuckeye]

Welcome as well!

Another suggestion is to search this site for something like "starting issues" or 6v Starting issues"

No only will you get potentially hundreds of posts but many of them will have pictures to help understand as well. Not sure if you have a 6v or 12v? Not sure if you have the 6v generator or 12v alternator? Search and you will find a post showing the differences and how to tell.

Also if you left your key in a position where the wipers and lights still turned on you drained the battery. Easy to fix, get another jump start and drive it for 30 minutes or an hour or two and it should be charged enough to start on it's own.

[bugheadred]

charging your battery with the car is not recommended I would charge it with a charger alt and gen is for maintaining charge

[kankles747]

I'd put money the car is converted to 12v.

[Sharp64]

The more interesting question is why wasn't a battery included with the car? I mean seriously? But yes the statement "bought a new correct 6v battery" seems odd.

[summer25]

It had not occurred to me that she may have very well been converted to 12V already! If that's the case then a new 12V battery should work. My friend who gave me the jump start has a small Honda. The car turned on immediately and we drove her around for a few minutes and she was fine. I will test when I get home and I think that could be the solution!

I had searched the archives before posting but was focused on it being possibly the ignition switch so I did not find a relatable answer because of the other inconsistencies that I was having with the car. I will continue to search archives before posting.

The wipers do only work with the key in the ignition. I just wasn't sure what is the "off" position to leave the ignition when leaving the car parked.

I appreciate the suggestions and will troubleshoot when I get home. I hope it's the battery so I can go for a ride tonight!

[Sharp64]

It may help before you do anything else to snap some pictures of the engine and such. It will help determine if the car has in fact been converted to 12v. If its 12v, then it most likely has an alternator. You can also check the bulbs and such to see what they are. Friendly word of advice before you really do anything else is get the John Muir book " How to Keep your Aircooled VW alive" and read through it to familiarize yourself with the car. To be very blunt, if you didn't know enough to check if its been converted to 12v before buying a battery it is very revealing that you may not be very experienced with VWs and there are some important things to know and check before proceeding. Read a lot, search for answers and ask questions if you don't find the answer.

[57BLITZ]

Penelope sure is cute!!!

I found a few photos in The Samba gallery for you to look at and use to compare to Penelope. Hope they help ya get it figured out!

This is a 6volt generator.
Notice the "box" that has BOSCH on it? That is the voltage regulator.
Behind that is a "generator backing plate" that is attached to the "fan housing" with 4 screws.
Notice the shape of the 6volt backing plate . . . it's concave with an interesting design.

This car has a 12volt generator.
Look at this 12volt backing plate . . . Ignore the nice BLUE color, but notice the shape is slightly convex and almost flat!
NO voltage regulator on top of the generator, so . . . it MUST be somewhere else on the car.
If Penelope was converted to 12volts with a generator, the voltage regulator could be attached to the fan housing, to the firewall or side panel, OR??????
The voltage regulator will have a couple of BIG red wires connected to it.

A 12volt regulator can look a lot like the Bosch regulator in the top photo, OR . . . like this modern solid-state regulator.

And here's a 12volt alternator.
Notice again how flat the 12volt backing plate looks.
This car probably has a voltage regulator mounted somewhere else . . . Newer Beetles (1967 and later) had the voltage regulator under the back seat.

Here is a top-view of a different type of 12volt alternator.
It is "internally-regulated" and was popular for conversions because there is no need to find a mounting location for a separate voltage regulator.
That white "box" is the voltage regulator.

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[Cusser]

Welcome Summer (that's something we in the Arizona desert would very rarely say !!!)

My first thoughts on reading the original post this afternoon was whether the VW had been upgraded to 12 volts too. Take/post a good photo of the engine compartment and we'll tell you in 2 seconds.

Even if you really do have a 6-volt system still, you didn't do irreparable damage to the VW, as when purchasing an old VW the by-far most important stuff to be concerned with is rust and body condition - all the mechanical stuff is fixable with lower cost than the two items just mentioned.

Gal owners - by tradition - need to post photos of themselves here too.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[summer25]

Hey everyone! Sorry for the delay. So I snapped a few pictures of Penny's engine and she looks like a 12v to me. If she really is, then my next question would be which battery should I buy that fits well? I'm going to replace the air cleaner as well. She also needs to get the brakes checked as it takes a bit for her to stop. I appreciate the photos and suggestions! Thank you for your positive feedback! Please let me know what you think

[Sharp64]

Yep. Looks like a 12v alternator. You should be able to go to anywhere and pick up a battery. If they push for a year, just tell them its for a 67 Beetle.

If you have the heater hooked up, you Should look at pulling the plugs out of the shroud and replacing the fresh air tubing. If not, look for a solid breastplate without the fresh air holes or duct tape them shut. Right now, you are pulling hot air from the exhaust into the engine compartment through those two open holes.

[57BLITZ]

[Eric&Barb]

All holes in the engine compartment that let you just look down at the road under your VW, need to be sealed up.

Even just using tin can lids clamped over the holes in the rear engine tin to block off those 2" holes will help. Rear engine tin you have is after market junk. You need a good used original rear tin that matches the tin that is in front of the pulley (front as in closer to the front bumper). Needs to have the heat riser tin and seals #37, 38, & 32.

You are missing the engine tin to body seal also.

All of the above allows the air that has already cooled the engine to suck that hot air back into the engine so as not to cool the engine as well.

You are missing the lower rear cylinder tins #8 is only the LH one, needs the RH one also. Need those to cool the backside of the cylinders properly.

Get the plastic clips that block off the holes in the fan shroud and hold the spark plug cables. Without those clips you are loosing cooling air out of the shroud.

Post some images of the underside of the engine. Bet it is missing the lower sled tins #5, 6 & 7....

Would get a good used stock 1966 air cleaner for it and chuck that one you have now.

Get a new ground cable to replace that junk one, and probably need a positive one also. Wolfsburg West sells stock cables with brass battery clamps that will last much longer than any lead clamp.

Get a stock bigger crankshaft pulley. The one you have now is too small and so does not turn the cooling fan fast enough.

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[summer25]

Thank you for your suggestions. I did not now about the engine tins and heat issues but it all makes sense. I am working on that but Penny still won't turn on. I got a new 12v battery, put gas in the tank and still won't turn on. So I've noticed two things. Now the fuel filter is empty, which if you look at the previous pictures it was full and clear. Now it's empty with a small puddle of what I assume is burnt fuel. It's a small black puddle at the bottom of the filter. I read that it is easy to replace but I want to make sure that the issue isn't coming from somewhere else blocking the fuel from entering the filter. The gas can looks clean inside. Would it be safe to replace the fuel filter and try turning her on?
Also, a couple days after I brought her home I was able to drive her around and noticed the car doesn't brake well. I thought it may be the brake pads but yesterday I checked the brake fluid reservoir and noticed its bone dry! So I want to try adding fluid before messing with any brake pads. Hopefully that's the answer. Does anyone have any suggestions on which type/brand of fluid to add? Or should the brake lines be bled before adding something new? I want to get her running since she is sitting in a storage and a sitting car is no good. I just got the title so I can get her tag and would like to bring her home.
I appreciate any help! I'm off today so if I can get what I need I would really love to get her running today if possible.

[Eric&Barb]

Replace the fuel filter and ALL the flex fuel lines from front to back. Take old fuel filter and cut it into a fuel proof funnel. Us the FPF to drip fuel into the carb thru the flex fuel line disconnected from the fuel pump. Reconnect the fuel line and see if it will start.

As for brakes:

1. Blow out all the old brake fluid. Repeat every 2 years or 30,000 miles which ever comes first if you use DOT 3 or 4 or 5.1 brake fluid that sucks up water right out air and rusts up the insides of the brake system.

2. Replace all four flex brake lines. Repeat this every eight or so years.

3. Take apart all five brake cylinders for a inspection, cleaning out of rust, and/or replace cylinders. Use a silicon grease for a brake cylinder grease, NAPA sells a tube of the stuff that is formulated for brakes.

4. You might just as well go to DOT 5 silicon brake fluid and skip the constant rust problem with the other brake fluids. Just bleed each wheel one pump once a year to get out and water trapped in the bottom of the brake system and keep topped up. Have over ten years and way over 100,000 miles without constant brake rust problems in our 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion.
If you decide to go with silicon brake, and before installing the flex lines and cylinders back into place, fluid blow out the metal brake lines several times over three weeks to get it all dried out. Mixing silicon brake fluid with other brake fluids has had reported problems with rubber seals swelling up....
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[summer25]

Eric&Barb thank you for the help. I'm going to tow the car over to the house and lift her up to see what I find.

I had added a bit of brake fluid to see if there is a leak and it leaked like a siv from underneath. Can anyone tell me what this is? Is it the master cylinder? Once I lift her up I'll be able to see better but there is definitely a hose or something missing here. What do you think?

[Eric&Barb]

That is the bottom of the brake reservoir. Missing the special brake fluid flex line between it and the master cylinder.

This would be a great time to go with dual master cylinder to get the added safety of not having all brakes fail at same time when one wheel cylinder or brake line blows out.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search..._chars=200

You really need to get the original dealer workshop manual ASAP:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-9651

Yes it is worth every cent.
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[Sharp64]

Ummm. Holy hell. Not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but you purchased a 50 year old car that didn't come with a battery and I'm guessing you weren't even able to take it for a test drive? It's pretty obvious from your posts that you really are very limited in your working knowledge of even basic auto mechanics. You mentioned getting the John Muir book, but have you read it? To be blunt, you REALLY need to consider taking this vehicle to a shop and having it checked out or making friends with someone in a local club or something to help you out before you hurt yourself or someone else. You need someone with some knowledge to go over this thing and figure out what has been done to it. The fact that it's missing the line from the reservoir means either you have no brakes at all, or possibly someone have moved the reservoir and maybe upgraded to a dual circuit system already.