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Larger tires on stock wheels?
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kirk knighton
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 7:11 pm    Post subject: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

My beloved 412 has the original rims with 165 R15 tires on them. I'm having a real hard time finding new 165s, but there are several option of 185s. Does anyone know if the 185s will fit the stock rims? And, if not, what is a good source for rims that look stock but that will accept the 185s?
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

I have been running basic chrome 5.5" wide vw rims commonly available. The ones listed for type 3 work great
No changes necessary. I run 205-60-15 tires.....which is a superb handling and braking upgrade. Very small change to speedometer reading. You can get almost dead on if memory servea by going down to 205-55....but anythong below that and the ride gets harsh due to less side wall flex. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

So I can put 185s on the rims I have now Ray?
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

kirk knighton wrote:
So I can put 185s on the rims I have now Ray?


Yes.....in the far past.....with stock 4.5" rims I ran originally....
185 Sr 15 michellin xzx back in the day. Pretty much standard on 411/412/914....no matter what the owners manuals said. Drove a zillion miles on that size.. Its the maximum but was common.
If you do a lot of hard cornering in the city....keep an eye on the air pressure once a week. You can lose a little with bead roll....but they run just fine. If you can drop to a slightly lower side wall like 65 series....they will be even nicer. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Is there any advantage to having larger tires on the rear? I see that on some VW's Or is that a no-no. Bob
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Is there any advantage to having larger tires on the rear? I see that on some VW's Or is that a no-no. Bob


Oh absolutely!.....but not a different size than the front. Same size front and rear.

Unless you are drag racing with some serious HP...that needs slicks in the back to transfer that power with slipping.....there is no useful reason I have seen in all but a handful if cars.....to have smaller fronts and larger rear tires.

Dragsters and funny cars use as noted......larger rears for tracyion and skinny fronts to reduce road,friction and drag. I have seen one or two European cars... may have been BMW or Mercedes.....that had slightly different sized front to rears accomplishing a little bit of very complicated tuning....designed that way.

The rest of the people......put smaller on front or back only for a couple of reasons....
1. To make it look like a race car....and/or drop the front end a little the easy way for a very small improvement in static castor.

2. Because they want improved traction and handling. ...but they have no room under the front fenders to put a wider tire ....so they put wider tires on the rear and leave the fronts skinny......short of screwin with the fender wall or suspension.

If you were asking if there was simply an advantage to having wider tires.....yes. increasing the tread contact patch at the same time as getting a better tire sidewall ratio is really a great and simple upgrade forchandling for the 411/412.

Also if you have a wagon......go to a junkyard and find a 411 or 412 sedan....and get the rear swaybar. It bolts right on....no drilling. That's a major improvement.

The last and best improvement......for basic handling.....even if you are not ready to swap in the Audi strut cartridge mod......you can disassemble your struts.....change the stepped bushing out and trim the top of the strut rod by 3/4".....and get rid of that nose high nasty stance of the front end. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

I just want the car to look as stock as possible. I'd probably stay with the 165s on the stock rims, but that size is near impossible to find anymore. Plus, they are pretty skinny come to think of it. Plenty of room for a wider tire down there!

On my other 412, the fastback with 4-speed, it has custom wheels with 195 65 15s. I just got a new set of Michelins in that size at Costco and they are sweet!
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Nice picture!......if those are 5.5 rims......if you like the 195's....you will love the 205's. They are a direct fit with most rims built for a type 3 backwpace/offset.

The difference in the 185's compared to 165's......was noticable on a stock car. Not huge.....but significant. By about 1980.....no one with stock 411/412 or 914 would run anything but 185's. Many of the super beetle owners went the same route. When you went in for tires....185's were the first offering.

But..as you have noticed....compared to 165's.....a jump to 195's.....is SWEET....and the 411 and 412 really wake up with just that change. ts a noticable handling jump.
The jump to 205-60s is that large....the next stage up.

As you keep increasing tread with....the sidewall is a percentage function of treadwidth.....so you keep dropping sidewall profile. The tread width coupled with lower stiffer sidewall.....up to a point......is the ticket.

The original 165's.....meaning 165 SR-15....was an 80% sidewall profile so the widewall was 80% of the tread width. Thats 132mm with 165mm treadwidth. Thats a tall flexy tire.

The 185 sr-15 came in both 80% sidewall and 75% sidewall depending on who the mfg was. Typically with a 185-75 or 185-70 (harder to find the 70)....you ended up with 20mm wider tread and either 8mm higher sidewall at 138.75mm or 2.5mm lower sidewall on the 70's at 129.5mm.

Either way the 185 was a better grip all around.....and not so floaty soft on corners.

When you move to a 195-65.....you go down to a lower stiffer sidewall of 126.75mm.....not so flexy on corners....and and even 1.2" wider tread. Significant effect.

The 205-60-15 gives a sidewall of 123mm.....and 40mm wider tread. But.....the circumference is actually very close to stock so the speedometer stays pretty close.

The circumference differences:

165/80-15: 25.392" total tire height and 79.77" circumference
185/80-15: 26.652" total tire height and 83.73" circumference
185/75-15: 25.889" total tire height and 81.32" circumference
196/65-15: 24.980" total tire height and 78.48" circumference
205/65-15: 25.492" total tire height and 80.09" circumference
205/60-15: 24.680" total tire height and 77.53" circumference

Ray
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kirk knighton
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

This is my 412 that does NOT have the stock wheels, so it was easy to put the 195s on it.
My other 412 is Sparkie, Julie Aleva's red 412 wagon. Still running the 165s on beautiful painted & polished silver-gray rims. I'll look forward to seeing her with 185s!
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

So today I got the Michelin 185 65 15s for Sparkie, on her standard 4.5" rims. The look is a bit different - wider tread, and not as tall as the 165 15s - she drives like a dream.
Thanks for your very helpful advice, Ray!
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

kirk knighton wrote:
So today I got the Michelin 185 65 15s for Sparkie, on her standard 4.5" rims. The look is a bit different - wider tread, and not as tall as the 165 15s - she drives like a dream.
Thanks for your very helpful advice, Ray!


Noticably differnt than the 165's aren't they? Thats about the best upgrade you can do for the stock 4.5" rims. Those should be 75s or 70s......not as much flex.....not so much like driving a couch.....but not rough either. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Yes! Drives more like a sports car now - no longer a "couch" ( lol! )
The guy at the tire shop said the 185s required a 5" rim but was confident that my 4.5" rims would be fine. And so far they are. Still getting used to the different look after ll these years...
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

kirk knighton wrote:
Yes! Drives more like a sports car now - no longer a "couch" ( lol! )
The guy at the tire shop said the 185s required a 5" rim but was confident that my 4.5" rims would be fine. And so far they are. Still getting used to the different look after ll these years...


Yes.....its funny....through the years every tire shop noted that the book "technically" says a 5" rim for 185s....but every single one also noted that they have installed 185s on 4m5" rims for eons and never had issues. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

kirk knighton wrote:
Yes! Drives more like a sports car now - no longer a "couch" ( lol! )
The guy at the tire shop said the 185s required a 5" rim but was confident that my 4.5" rims would be fine. And so far they are. Still getting used to the different look after ll these years...


I experienced the same great improvement when shifting from 165/80 to 185/65 on my 5 1/2 Sprintstars, a totally new drivning experience. Very Happy
The only thing I can complain about right now is a no resistance feel in the steering wheel (and a small coggleing) at straight highway driving just as there was a lash in the steering components somewhere but there is not - the rims reacts at tiniest steering wheel move...maybe its due to soft tire walls?

Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
kirk knighton wrote:
Yes! Drives more like a sports car now - no longer a "couch" ( lol! )
The guy at the tire shop said the 185s required a 5" rim but was confident that my 4.5" rims would be fine. And so far they are. Still getting used to the different look after ll these years...


I experienced the same great improvement when shifting from 165/80 to 185/65 on my 5 1/2 Sprintstars, a totally new drivning experience. Very Happy
The only thing I can complain about right now is a no resistance feel in the steering wheel (and a small coggleing) at straight highway driving just as there was a lash in the steering components somewhere but there is not - the rims reacts at tiniest steering wheel move...maybe its due to soft tire walls?

Lars S


Ah....I know this problem. The problem is too little or too much toe in.

The toe-in from the factory is set to allow for the flexing of the tires and suspension bushings....caused by force against the frontal aspect of the tire by the road....during forward motion. So in other words.....the harder/faster you drive....the nore the road friction tries to spread the wheels apart outward.

You now have tires 20mm wider.....this makes more friction at any speed....trying to spread the tires further apart....changing their alignment to the centerline.

As you increase tire width....you need to increase toe-in just slightly. You can get away with slightly variable toe-in on the original 165-80 tires because the more flexible side wall gives a little more.
The lower profile 185 sidewall flexes a bit less.

Also.....the wider tires and the resulting greater forward motion friction and spreading force.....and less flexible sidewall....causes more flexing of both the control arm bushings and the radius arm bushing donuts. This can actually cause the toe out to be excessive at highway speed.
This can give either a slight shimmy, cause the steering to be overly sensitive to slight movements for lane change etc.

The opposite problem happens when you upgrade components like the control arm bushings and radius arm bushings. When you use urethane or delrin for control arm bushings....or even shim the original bushings with steel or brass so they cannot flex excessively......it causes the original toe in settings to be excessive....because the suspension does not flex as much which means the tires do not spread outward as much from road friction.

Typically with 195 to 205 tires.....and stock suspension bushings. ...I have found that about 50% greater additional toe-in is required because of the greater speading force.

With 195 and 205 tires with stiff, not stock bushings.....about 30% to 50% LESS toe-in is required.

With 185s....even though friction and spreading force is higher......its close enough to stock because of the lower sidewalls.....that I used to get away with no changes to toe in.....that is until the control arm bushings began to wear.

If you have stock control arm bushings....and you notice from looking underneath....the the gap on each side of the control arm itself....in the yoke in the subframe....is not even....usually the arm slips slightly forward on the control arm bushing......then your toe-in will not be correct at highway speed....especially with larger tires.

If you are not yet in position to change the control arm bushings to something better.....you can at least put shims on each side of the control arm to keep it centered. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Great thoughts (as usual) Ray!
Now I have a few things to check, thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Great thoughts (as usual) Ray!
Now I have a few things to check, thanks!

Lars S


Later today I will post some pictures of what the control arm 4m bushings look like when they are slipping and what it does to the rarius arm bushings and centering rings. ..and what it looks like to put simple shims in ro correct the centering.

The stock control arm bushings.....rarely ever actually wear out....but the outer metal shell....the part that is pressed into the control arm can slide out of center making for a geometry problem. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

You are spot on Ray!
Both bushings are as far rear as they can get in their holders. I noticed this earlier when I changed the idler arm bushing but there is no lash in the control arm bushings....I used a long steel bar to put press on the arm but no sigificant lash. Also I have checked the toe in to be spot on stock recommendation.

Now its time to shim the bushings and after that put some more toe in.
What material do you recommend for the shims?

/Lars S

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
You are spot on Ray!
Both bushings are as far rear as they can get in their holders. I noticed this earlier when I changed the idler arm bushing but there is no lash in the control arm bushings....I used a long steel bar to put press on the arm but no sigificant lash. Also I have checked the toe in to be spot on stock recommendation.

Now its time to shim the bushings and after that put some more toe in.
What material do you recommend for the shims?

/Lars S

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The tough part..... sometimes.... is getting the bushing re-centered. These are bonded rubber. They have the steel tube in the center that the bolt bears on...and a stiff steel tube on the outside. This outer steel tube has slight ribs on it....about 6-8 arrayed around it. The bushing is pressed into the control arm with a slight interference fit.

The rubber inside is injection molded under pressure...so these are pretty stiff bushings. They are actually very high quality. If I could buy them new...I would use them still even with the performance suspension upgrades I have.

The problem they have as you can see....is that there are no collars or flanges on the end to make up the gap at each end of the rubber core and the outer steel tube. I believe the factory did this to minimize wear between the control arm faces and the yoke of the subframe (this in my opinion is one of the several little long term design flaws in the type 4 suspension)....so.....

....With age...the rubber stretches a bit and since the outer tube is tight in the arm....the outer tube and arm can slide forward or backwards.

With stock tires and good radius arm bushings the control arms tend to slide toward the rear.

With larger than stock tires and with some play and wear in the radius arm bushings or with worn at centering rings between the radius arm bushings..... they tend to slip toward the front due to outward spread.

Since there is no gap between the actual steel tube in the center of the bushing and the sub frame yoke.....any bushing you use needs to have an ID that is just slightly large than the center tube and an OD just slightly larger than the face of the control arm.

I have this written down somewhere and will look it up or I can measure later on one of my spares....but its about 50mm OD and 20mm ID.

The first time I did this I used steel arbor shims. These are fairly lightly loaded...and are really just "packings" to keep the control arm from sliding forward or backward.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-shims/=12dplek Like these.

You can use stainless or regular steel. Really...and I have done this as well....using a hard low wearing/low friction plastic packing ring works just as well...like Delrin or UHMW polyethylene works just fine as well.

If you use hard brass or bronze....make them a little larger in diameter to spread the load out because those are self lubricating materials that are softer and will wear a little faster.....but will no longer wear the metal of either the control arm or the subframe yoke.

Installing these....is a pain in the butt. Its not really hard...but you will be cursing Laughing .

If your control arm bushings are stuck at one end...you may need to do some prying....but be careful not to bend the subframe yoke.

The best way..... lift the side of the car you are working with off the ground....or the whole front end...whichever you have tools for.
Then disconnect the ball joint from the strut. Wire the steering knuckle into place to hold it to the strut.

Unbolt the swaybar link to the control arm from both control arms first, then you can swing the sway bar up out of the way.

Loosen the bolt at the back of the radius arm....but do not remove it all the way. This gives you room to move the control arm in all axes...but keeps the radius arm suspended so you dont have to right with both ends.

Now would be a good time to check the condition of the centering rings on the radius arm eye socket.

Remove the nut and bolt from the control arm. Use a pry bar to lever control arm bushing end out of the subframe yoke.

The frustrating part is getting these thin bushing washers to stay on the ends of the bushings while you then push and pry the end of the control arm back into the yoke. They keep falling out....its maddening! Laughing

So....the best way...order the bushing shims too tight on the ID...and clearance with a dremel tool and sanding drum until they are a tight fit on the steel tube in the center of the bushing.

The other way....very tacky grease....which I dont like to over grease these because the grease draws dust and grit.

What is now going on my car...and they are finished...are delrin control arm bushings. I am using the original steel center tubes from the original bushings. I removed the rubber and the outer steel tube.

I ordered Delrin rod that is already drilled through in the center...undersized...and slightly oversized on the OD as well. I Used a reamer and sanding drums to make the inner steel tube into a press fit in the center of the rod. Then attached the whole bushing to a bolt...put it in the drill press and sized the outside with a file.

Each bushing took about 1.5 hours to make. Then I press fit them into the arm...very light press fit...maybe .002". Then filed them flush with the ends of the arms. This made the center bushing tube about .100" short on each end. I inserted simple hard brass plate at each end at the "packing"

If you are interested...I have pictures of all of this and can put a how to post together. The entire cost ...not including my labor time...was about equivalent to a pair of good quality control arm bushings....but these handle very well and will never wear out.

Cost was about $30 for the plastic and about $20 fir the brass. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Larger tires on stock wheels? Reply with quote

Once again thanks for the excellent information Ray!
I will also read the Bushing thread once more..😊
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=141752

Lars S
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