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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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 Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:20 am Post subject: Install right side view mirror |
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| Give me some pointers? The 71 411 didn't come with a right side mirror, and I would like to install one on my car. What should be used for the mounting inside the door? I won't attempt to drill the hole in the door myself----I'll get help on that. What size is the hole? Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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Give me a few to check. So.....your door does not already have a threaded hole with a plastic block off plug in it?
This is actually going to more difficult than you think.
There is a threaded insert that needs to be welded in. The door panel alone is too thin to support a threaded insert.
This does not mean there are not a few ways to work around this but its in a very difficult to access area. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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Yep I know the door metal wouldn't support a mirror. There is no plug so I doubt if there is a welded support on the inside. I was hoping there was a simple solution, but it looks like the isn't. I could remove the door panel, and see what I could find.
If I really think I had to have the right side mirror, it may be simpler to find a door with a mirror attachment, and swap doors. Of course that would involve painting etc. Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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| titan3c wrote: |
Yep I know the door metal wouldn't support a mirror. There is no plug so I doubt if there is a welded support on the inside. I was hoping there was a simple solution, but it looks like the isn't. I could remove the door panel, and see what I could find.
If I really think I had to have the right side mirror, it may be simpler to find a door with a mirror attachment, and swap doors. Of course that would involve painting etc. Bob |
There is really not much at all that can be seen with the door panel off. You will learn more by removing the drivers side mirror and inspecting how that one was installed.
If you can find an insert thread of the right type.......and this is sparking a really vague memory........someone has done this on either a type 3 or 4...........like find a steel nut. Not a threaded insert......an actual flanged nut.
I think you may need to grind it a little thinner (maybe not).....or grind a little on one side of the flange or another.
The object being that once you have drilled a hole in the outer door panel in the exact spot....say in either the exact diameter or slightly larger........if you can use a magnet or some homemade tool to slide the nut up into that thin area.......you can have a welding shop tack weld it in carefully with a TIG welder.
Check in the type 3 forum and in the shoptallkforums. I will get out by lunch to look at mine and see what I can figure out while I get the size as well. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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| Yep I've looked at the left side, and the mounting nut is welded on the inside. Just a thought, wonder how JB Weld would work to fasten a mounting nut instead of welding. Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Yep I've looked at the left side, and the mounting nut is welded on the inside. Just a thought, wonder how JB Weld would work to fasten a mounting nut instead of welding. Bob |
You know...there are so many times when I think people use JB weld too much on cars....but this is one of those things that it may be perfect for. The real key is surface area....and getting it clean.
You might see if there is enough room in that area for a small piece of steel plate...like 1/4" or 3/8" thick so you have room for deep enough threads. But the plate would have more surface area.
The trick would be to slather the plate with JB weld....slow drying JB weld....get it up into the hole area and thread a bolt with a stack of washers in to hold it tight against the inside surface in position.
Then mix up some more JB weld and put it into a syringe with an extended tube of a few inches on the end. reach up from inside the door panel and run a bead around as much of that plate as possible getting as much surface area attached as possible.
That may do quite nicely.
I was lucky. My current 412 came with the threaded hole installed on the passenger door. It had a factory nylon lug installed in it that was painted body color. Still have the plug. Ray |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side vew mirror |
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Cool! I knew someone did it. Thats actually very similar to my suggestion to put a flange, nut inside in that area.
Thanks!
Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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| Yep that's great and according to AirHead it fits the type 4, and they also have the round rubber seal. I'll call them today, and order both. I picked up a right side mirror sometime ago, don't remember where I found it, and it's in good condition. Thanks Bob |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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| I'm confused - I've had two 1971 411s ( wagons ) and both came with mirrors on both doors. |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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| If VW followed the Type 3 pattern, only the wagons had passenger side mirrors. There must have been some sort of regulation requiring them on the Variants. I had a nut welded to my passenger door of my fastback when it was repainted. Not strictly original but stock looking and a great safety feature. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| If VW followed the Type 3 pattern, only the wagons had passenger side mirrors. There must have been some sort of regulation requiring them on the Variants. I had a nut welded to my passenger door of my fastback when it was repainted. Not strictly original but stock looking and a great safety feature. |
Nope....pretty much factory standard on most type 4....and Factory optional (not JUST a dealer install) on all type 4.
The threads were factory installed (welded) but plugged on my 1972 411 four door......the mirror was factory installed on my 1973 four door 412, and optional on my two door 412 (still have the factory plastic plug with L96M paint on it that I pulled out when I found a right hand mirror). That factory plastic plug is part # 111 837 521 listed as cap for mirror opening.
The parts book lists this:
Left mirror:
411 857 501 for
411 and 415: 2 door LHD
421 and 425: 4 door LHD
461 and 465: LHD wagon
462 and 466: RHD wagon
411 857 501A: M124 (yellow headlights and additional safety mirror for Export models)
Models: 411/415 LHD 2 doors, 421/425 LHD 4 doors and 461/465 LHD wagons.
The right hand mirror:
411 857 502:
M62 right hand convex option for sweden
M528 right hand convex option for 411/415 LHD 2 door and 421/425 LHD 4 door and 461/465 LHD wagon.
412 857 502:
412/416 RHD 2 door and 422/426 RHD 4 door and 462/466 RHD wagon
412 857 502A:
M124: yellow headlight bulbs and additional safety mirror for export.
461 LHD wagon and 462/466 RHD wagon.
I have rarely found a 411 or 412....wagon or sedan.... (but I have seen a few) that did NOT either have an installed right side mirror or welded in threads and a nylon plug.
Also it was cool to find the part you listed to install a mirror on cars that didnt come with one.....as you noted....part # 111 857 517C....says to refer to workshop bulletin A117.
Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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My 411 was purchased in July of 1971, and it doesn't have a right side plug for a mirror. Makes me doubt if there is a mounting nut installed on the door, but I haven't removed the panel to check.
Since I live near Tulsa I checked with Bughaus, and they have the nut and round rubber sea in stock. 111-857-517C, and 111-857-543. Bob |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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Odd for VW to not put the nut/hole/plug on Type 3 fast/notch models. That meant they had to stock additional doors or skins by model. I would have figured it was cheaper to make them the same. Given the English/Aussie/Japanese export models needed them for ALL models, it's even more puzzling.
Sounds like they wised up for the Type 4, though not in the first year. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Install right side view mirror |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Odd for VW to not put the nut/hole/plug on Type 3 fast/notch models. That meant they had to stock additional doors or skins by model. I would have figured it was cheaper to make them the same. Given the English/Aussie/Japanese export models needed them for ALL models, it's even more puzzling.
Sounds like they wised up for the Type 4, though not in the first year. |
KTPhil....I think you were on to it in your last post and this one. They wised-up.
It appears from the parts book and "M" code #'s that they were already getting requests for the extra mirror for safety reasons from both the UK and at least Sweden...who knows where else....for safety reasons as can be seen from the optional convex mirror....which would be cool to see.
From what I am seeing or have seen....pretty much the few type 4 that I have not seen right hand mirrors either installed or at least provision to install them built in....were the very earliest ones that came to continent. That would be 1971....as is titan3c's car.
Pretty much 1972 and on for type 4....I have not seen one that didn't either have a mirror installed or the plastic plug. Ray |
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