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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I personally like the little meep-meep tone of the stock Vanagon horns. Here in the PNW, you'll find that most of us are pretty loath to lay on the horn 'cause it's viewed as culturally too aggressive. We mostly just tap the horn if you cut us off or you need a little nudging if you're taking too long to respond to a green light. Laying on of the horn for more than a micro-second here is just a notch down from pulling a gun and initiating mortal combat gestures. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Here's a horn story that may have value. When the first prototype Lexus LS400s were arriving and I was the Product Planner, they had a wimpy horn. I held a meeting to decide what to change it to. To prep for the meeting, I drove around Los Angeles to various luxury make dealerships with a cassette recorder and got about 20 sound samples.
When the meeting was held, in the room were all the product development people for one of the world's largest automakers and we chose the 1990 BMW 7 series as the best sounding horns. If you find an LS400 that was built in the first month of production, it will have a crappy horn. After that, we made a mid-production change.
Take it for what it's worth. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Quote: |
1990 BMW 7 series as the best sounding horns |
well.. that's where my horn reference came from... my daily driver is a 1992 735iL...
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Here's a horn story that may have value. When the first prototype Lexus LS400s were arriving and I was the Product Planner, they had a wimpy horn. I held a meeting to decide what to change it to. To prep for the meeting, I drove around Los Angeles to various luxury make dealerships with a cassette recorder and got about 20 sound samples.
When the meeting was held, in the room were all the product development people for one of the world's largest automakers and we chose the 1990 BMW 7 series as the best sounding horns. If you find an LS400 that was built in the first month of production, it will have a crappy horn. After that, we made a mid-production change.
Take it for what it's worth. |
The early LS400 was a carbon copy of german steel in every way, only better in many ways, except for the badge. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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"The early LS400 was a carbon copy of german steel in every way, only better in many ways, except for the badge."
I helped develop this vehicle, and it did turned out to be a great first effort. Not much was copied, however. We led in many ways, and the market rewarded us by selling every one we could build. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7462 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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While the LS400 enginerds led in many ways, the sheet metal guys followed m-b to the tee, it seemed that body parts were interchangeable. Much like Hyundai follows the Germans today. Apparently, all kinds of people want a car that looks good and is reasonably priced to maintain. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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MsTaboo wrote: |
...
Having the sound of a european vehicle (that is loud and clear) may get better attention. Perhaps a fresh Vangon horn, with a relay for full power? ... . |
I went this route a few years back, fresh stock horn, good wiring, with relay. It is actually quite loud, still has same tone, but more like MEEP-MEEP!! _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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While on the subject of horns, I'd be curious if anyone has a suggestion to maintain the horn ring and brass contact. On my Syncro, it was worn badly and eventually snagged and broke. I had to buy a new hub if I recall. Would a conductive grease make sense to lubricate it against wear? Or would that attract grit and wear faster since its open to the environment. How have others repaired this besides the new hub route? _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
While on the subject of horns, I'd be curious if anyone has a suggestion to maintain the horn ring and brass contact. On my Syncro, it was worn badly and eventually snagged and broke. I had to buy a new hub if I recall. Would a conductive grease make sense to lubricate it against wear? Or would that attract grit and wear faster since its open to the environment. How have others repaired this besides the new hub route? |
How many miles before the brass ring or contacts wear out? I am handicapped in this department, but would help me answering your question. I have not read up on the conductive material that made up the contacts. My guess is either brass spring fingers or better, carbon brush(es).
My intuition tells me not to add lubricant as it attracts grit which in the long term make it wear faster as well as compromise the low resistance.
can't this fix it, unless the problem is the contacts?
http://www.gowesty.com/product-details.php?id=24118 _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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In retrospect I think a dab of silicone grease may not be a bad idea. I have seen undisturbed, and unadulterated OEM steering wheel slip ring has this translucent grease on the track, which I infer as silicone grease. I think it is not conductive, but the brush still make good electrical contact with the brass ring. _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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A remark on why VW didn't put in relay for the horn. A lot of folks don't pause for a moment to think what an automobile is. It is as much a consumer goods as your toaster oven. It may be sexier and cost a lot more money. But there is no difference that the automakers have to hit a price point with these mass production consumer goods. Until you opt for the premium makes and models, these vehicles have undergone "value engineering". There are tradeoffs made in every tiny component down to a nut and bolt, and screw. These professionals are very good in making design tradeoffs, as what deemed important. The said horn you pay $20 retail cost VW may be $1.50. Adding a relay is not just the cost if the relay. It adds wiring, crimped contacts, and labor, just to make the horn 100% loud, as opposed to 85% loud the cheap way... _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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ragnarhairybreeks Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009 Posts: 1890 Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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About 6 years ago I wired my horns ( I had two horns at that time, a stock one and a wrecker sourced Audi horn ) in the dual horn with relay fashion. This was a factory option, not sure if very common in North America.
Anyhow, I posted pics of the German wiring wiring diagrams and also a modified diagram outlining what I did. It's all here:
https://shufti.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/dual-horn-relay-and-wiring/
Since then I've moved the horn location up to behind the grill beside passenger side headlamp. Why? Because I buggered up those aforementioned horns on the trail. It's pretty easy to relocate the horn, used the same metal strap as used down below and there was a hole already in a good place up behind the grill, on the standing seam of that horizontal body member.
I found out that the previous owner had made his own horn contact ring on the steering wheel. It was pretty well done but not perfect. Blog post about that is here
https://shufti.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/horn-contact-ring/
Has anyone else heard the rumour that the horn contact tab, that copper tab that often wears into a snaggy sharp thing, is made from beryllium copper?
It might make sense for it to be a harder copper alloy but on the other hand it sounds like an urban legend.
Alistair _________________ '86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I am not metallurgist but I have the fortune of working with great MEs and great machinists. Beryllium copper is often chosen to used when spring-like characteristics and good conductivity is desired. I would not assume VW chose it for the Vanagon due to the consumer goods nature of it. _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7915 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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chase4food wrote: |
Until you opt for the premium makes and models, these vehicles have undergone "value engineering". |
The only difference between other CE1-equipped VW's and CE1 Vanagons: Pin A25 on the panel is being used for seat belt warning, which is tied into those ridiculously old-technology brake light switches. All other horn relay-related pins on the panel are going unused. Had VW switched the vans over to an electric brake light switch , they darn well could have relayed the horn(s) without much added cost. As I said previously, cheapskates. It took them years to finally modernize the vans with CE1, long after all other models received it.
Maximizing profit is what it all boils down to, be it the automotive industry or any other industry. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4083 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
Maximizing profit is what it all boils down to, be it the automotive industry or any other industry. |
Bingo. Every time one of these discussions about why VW did this, or used plastic for that, it all comes back to money. More likely than not, there were engineers pulling their hair out over the decisions coming from the offices with a view. _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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chase4food Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2016 Posts: 636 Location: PNW im Amerika
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Hate to differ. Most hard working engineers don't have an office with a view. OK. I am guilty of not reading carefully. Still I disagree the evil corporate empire conspiracy theory except the the recent VW/Audi/Porsche emission cheat and the like. _________________ - Vince 飲食玩睡
what Isolde wants Isolde doesn't always get, 4 I know what is best for her - Liebe macht frei |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4083 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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Ah, blessed naivety. _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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ragnarhairybreeks Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2009 Posts: 1890 Location: Sidney B.C. Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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The big story summarized, the lede was hidden in my previous post
Vanagon has relay in the dual horn set up.
No relay in single horn set up.
Alistair _________________ '86 7 passenger syncro, converted to westy pop top, project still in progress
'82 westy, diesel converted to gas in '94, now gone...
https://shufti.blog/
Old address still works...
http://shufti.wordpress.com |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12114 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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MsTaboo wrote: |
kamzcab86 wrote: |
Maximizing profit is what it all boils down to, be it the automotive industry or any other industry. |
Bingo. Every time one of these discussions about why VW did this, or used plastic for that, it all comes back to money. More likely than not, there were engineers pulling their hair out over the decisions coming from the offices with a view. |
That phenomena isn't just relegated to Vanagons or VAG. There's a constant state of tension between the design/engineer groups and the bean counters in lots of automotive companies. It's especially pronounced nowadays in high end German brands with previous, but long dispelled reputations for an engineering-driven pursuit of quality throughout their lifecycles, but alas quoth the raven, "Nevermore." _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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SuperSamba Samba False Idol
Joined: June 03, 2000 Posts: 1536 Location: The Interwebs
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Horn replacement... Easy? |
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I did some cleanup. Stop the pointless trolling/arguing. |
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