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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Pulling the hoses off the CSV (cold start valve) can loosen the seal between the body and plug.
To remove the fuel hoses from the CSV (cold start valve):
Use a razor blade to split the hose down the middle, without cutting the plastic nipple.
Spray WD-40 in the split and gently twist the hose back an forth until it breaks loose. Then and only than pull the hose off the fitting.
Good luck
Tcash |
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Pulling the hoses off the CSV (cold start valve) can loosen the seal between the body and plug.
To remove the fuel hoses from the CSV (cold start valve):
Use a razor blade to split the hose down the middle, without cutting the plastic nipple.
Spray WD-40 in the split and gently twist the hose back an forth until it breaks loose. Then and only than pull the hose off the fitting.
Good luck
Tcash |
This is very good advice Tcash. I also remove my fuel hoses (German braided) by slicing them lengthwise on my carb inlet tube and fuel pump inlet/outlet tubes. That braided hose acts like a Chinese finger trap and is hard to pull them off if you don't slice them. This is what loosens the nipples in the carb and fuel pump bodies. I'm sure it's lead to plenty of engine fires on type 1 engine powered VW's, especially when someone hangs a big, heavy fuel filter on the fuel line between the carb and fuel pump.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Exercise for the day.
Go out and make sure the CSV (cold start valve) blue wire connector "T" is not loose.
Tcash |
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aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Damn that stinks, another (becoming) cliche fire. Glad you got it out. Unfortunately I know exactly what you are thinking and seeing. Your looks even better contained than mine was, but exact same symptoms.
Your harness looks as cooked as mine was, I wouldn't try to salvage it as is. If you don't buy one from Kyle, or find a used one, I'm happy to talk you through any pointers on creating a new one. I have some extra connectors I could spare too.
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aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
another thing everyone seems to do is whip open the engine bay door....all you're doing is adding huge amounts of air. you'd be better off shooting down both vents first then opening the door.
try it with compressed air down 1 vent, you'll feel if come around to the opposite vent and that should put out or at least choke down the fire to the point it would be safe to open the engine door |
You're not wrong and I have thought the same reading other fire threads, but now having been in the same unfortunate position, that's so beyond the scope of the tunnel vision you are seeing at the time. It's just a natural instinct to open the hatch. "Hello Curiosity, my name is Cat."
Actually in my fire that started this thread, I had no smoke, I opened it to see about a low idle. So carry on with the hindsight quarterbacking
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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I don't understand who the CSV can look fine and all the wires look melted. That screams "electrical fire" to me, but I don't have it in front of me here to judge.
Robbie
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2206
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
I don't understand who the CSV can look fine and all the wires look melted. That screams "electrical fire" to me, but I don't have it in front of me here to judge.
Robbie |
I want to see the burn pattern, if any, from the distributor cap interior.
Possible ruptured diaphragm letting explosive mix inside to light it off?
Will you bench test the CSV to see it it sprays fuel in the wrong direction?
Looks like it was your lucky day. Minimal repairs. For an engine fire. |
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Curtquarquesso
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2010
Posts: 63
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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On the CSV: In the interests of furthering knowledge in this area, I'm not going to remove my CSV or any of it's connections just yet. I want to get the car in a running or at least a cranking state, and watch the fuel mist out out of the area that we're all suspecting is failing on various CSVs and causing these fires. I have definitely taken it off and on many times recently, and I can totally see my man-handling causing it to fail internally. I hadn't read any literature up until this point that warns about how and why CSVs fail, and how they could potential provide fuel for a fire. Many thanks to Tcash, eurocarsplus, and wcfvw69 for insight on this interesting "quirk" of L-Jet CSV units. 
| aerosurfer wrote: |
Damn that stinks, another (becoming) cliche fire. Glad you got it out. Unfortunately I know exactly what you are thinking and seeing. Your looks even better contained than mine was, but exact same symptoms.
Your harness looks as cooked as mine was, I wouldn't try to salvage it as is. If you don't buy one from Kyle, or find a used one, I'm happy to talk you through any pointers on creating a new one. I have some extra connectors I could spare too.
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Misery loves company I guess. Heh. Thanks for initially posting your fire and your findings. It'll help me a great deal here. I'm going to remove the harness and assess. In my quick initial clean-up, I didn't see any exposed wiring at least. I won't risk a short in the harness, but I also don't want to part with an original harness if I can help it. I picked up the connector I replaced just prior to the fire at my local ACVW parts place for a few cents. It wasn't the right color, and wasn't original, so when and if I restore this harness, I'd be interested in getting the right color connectors and such. When it comes time to deal with the harness, I'll point you to the right topic and thread. 
| asiab3 wrote: |
I don't understand who the CSV can look fine and all the wires look melted. That screams "electrical fire" to me, but I don't have it in front of me here to judge.
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I get where you're coming from. That's what my dad said initially as well. Because I've not seen evidence yet of anything being fouled/shorted/blown electrically, and because immediately before this drive, I'd been monkeying with the CSV, I think our initial assessment here will hold some water. None of the wiring has been burned through, and none of the copper in the wiring got hot enough to break. The wires are all meted from the outside-in, not from the inside-out. Naturally, I'll know more when I've cleaned everything and started testing.
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
Another thing everyone seems to do is whip open the engine bay door....all you're doing is adding huge amounts of air. you'd be better off shooting down both vents first then opening the door. Try it with compressed air down 1 vent, you'll feel if come around to the opposite vent and that should put out or at least choke down the fire to the point it would be safe to open the engine door
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| aerosurfer wrote: |
You're not wrong and I have thought the same reading other fire threads, but now having been in the same unfortunate position, that's so beyond the scope of the tunnel vision you are seeing at the time. It's just a natural instinct to open the hatch. "Hello Curiosity, my name is Cat."
Actually in my fire that started this thread, I had no smoke, I opened it to see about a low idle. So carry on with the hindsight quarterbacking
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If you can tell how much fire there is in the engine compartment without opening the lid, you've got problems.  Shooting down the air intakes is probably going to be the safest bet for sure. In my situation, I wasn't thinking so much as I was just doing. Having the extinguisher under my seat was the only reason I was able to get it out as soon as I did. The fire was fairly small and localized from what I could tell in the brief 1-2 seconds I was actually able to see it before I hosed it down. I think using CO2 over dry chemical would be the only thing I'd do differently in this situation. I'll make a 1-2lb CO2 unit my primary response unit for car fires, and keep my dry chemical unit for general purpose stuff and as a back-up.
| timvw7476 wrote: |
I want to see the burn pattern, if any, from the distributor cap interior.
Possible ruptured diaphragm letting explosive mix inside to light it off?
Will you bench test the CSV to see it it sprays fuel in the wrong direction?
Looks like it was your lucky day. Minimal repairs. For an engine fire.
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I can provide that for you. The distributor cap had soot on the outside area nearest the vacuum advance. The vacuum is pretty sooty as well. The inside of the distributor cap shower little-to-no signs of singe or soot, but I'll double check. Which diaphragm are you referring to? I'll be testing the CSV inside the car as is when I get the motor cleaned up. It probably sounds stupid and risky, but I want to be able to nail it as the source of my fuel. I'll be disconnecting the distributor so I won't have a spark and another fire on my hands, and then I'll crank it and see if the CSV mists. Before all that though, I'll be dropping the motor and cleaning the crap out of it as well as doing some miscellaneous maintenance things before I attempt to run it. Don't want to allow it to ingest any abrasives.
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2206
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Just curious about vacuum advance, in case it ruptured, before ignition,
to set this fire off. Why do the late models always show fire source
at that hot spot? (CSV/distributor vicinity)
All the F.I. guys seem to be getting quicker as time goes on stopping these
early enough to put together a prevention file. Pinning down the exact spot
where combustible meets spark event would be ideal. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
I don't understand who the CSV can look fine and all the wires look melted. That screams "electrical fire" to me, but I don't have it in front of me here to judge.
Robbie |
look how a torch works...same idea. flame is 1/4-1/2 inch away from fuel source...pressurized fuel will have the same result.
doing some CSI will be good. be careful....don't want a bigger boom
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Any thoughts on a thin smear of RTV or liquid tape or other petroleum safe product around the joint of the plastic and metal part of the CSV? I guess my idea is more of a support for the internal sealing of the Valve; or does 28-36 PSI still trump any external sealant?
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| aerosurfer wrote: |
| Any thoughts on a thin smear of RTV or liquid tape or other petroleum safe product around the joint of the plastic and metal part of the CSV? I guess my idea is more of a support for the internal sealing of the Valve; or does 28-36 PSI still trump any external sealant? |
If the plastic didn't look too bad, maybe one could judiciously redo the crimps holding the plastic in place? |
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aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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I dunno Mike, if the plastic did look bad i would have just replaced the whole thing.
Perhaps the CSV needs to be treated more as a wear item instead. And simply replaced in intervals
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79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Last edited by aerosurfer on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Exercise for the day.
Go out and make sure the CSV (cold start valve) blue wire connector "T" is not loose.
Tcash |
Or, better yet, make a little block-off plate and get rid of it altogether! 
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
Exercise for the day.
Go out and make sure the CSV (cold start valve) blue wire connector "T" is not loose.
Tcash |
Or, better yet, make a little block-off plate and get rid of it altogether! |
Not sure what would happen if one made a way to ground out all the injectors during startup. Have a button on the dash that would cause all the injectors to spray continuously whenever it was pushed. This should give sufficient extra fuel to give good cold starts in any weather. Don't know if it would hurt the ECU or not. |
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derwagonwerks
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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I'm a little late to this thread,but thought I'd throw my 2c in,as this has happened to me twice. the first time I got about a mile from my shop when bus stalled Very cold foot of snow. when I got out of the bus,black smoke coming from vents. The ONLY one of my vehicles with no fire extinguisher (my bad). by the timefire dept arrive,bus was a charred can. Had the bus towed back to my shop and the next day set about to try to determine the cause. I ruled out fuel hoses,as I keep an eye on them and replace ever 2-3 years. I deternined it was electrical,bur what? I cut open a few spare FI harness and found that a number of the wires had their insulation turned to powder,bare copper exposed. Since the FI system is not fused,I assumed that there had been a soft short,which smoldered until something combustable ignited. This past year,I had an identical experience as yours WITH A NEW BRAND NEW FI HARNESS and cloth braided German fuel hose. After puting out the fire (extinguisher handy this time,and letting things cool. I turned the ignition on and pressurized the fuel line via contacts in the AFM. Surprise! a leak in the less than 1 year old fuel line. The amount of ethanol in our fuels eats most fuel lines in a relativly short period of time. Now all I use is fuel hose rated for up to E85 ethanol. Neither of these may have been your cause,but worth knowing. You faulty CSV very well could have been the cause. These are obsolete by the way,although there are still some out there on parts shelves.
The chemicals in dry fire extinguisher,I found,is extremely corrosive ESPECIALY TO MAGNESIUM,fan housing, and also to aluminum. Baking soda and mild detergent,the a thoughough rise with water. In my case the extinguisher chemicals did more damage and took more time to clean up than the fire damage. Halotron extinguishers are worth their price.
done |
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curtp07
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 874
Location: Mass
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Not sure why you don't want to "part with an original harness"? I wouldn't trust an original harness as far as I could throw it (still atached to the engine atached to the bus)....no matter how "good" it looks it's been subjected to years of heat cycles...it's probably junk!
Are you going to look into the blaze cut? I believe lots of guys here are installing them (don't recall an actual story of one in action).
I put the blazecut and removed all that insulation and fiber board...gotta get on my FI harness on this bus....
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BayCreamPuff
Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2015
Posts: 769
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Has anyone here successfully repaired a loose CSV?
I have a spare that is a bit loose and I'd like to attempt to crimp it and test it.
Would compressed air suffice in testing for a leak? I'd rather go that route than trying to bench test with fuel under pressure.
For anyone interested in seeing one of these opened up I found someone attempting to fix this issue on a fiat spider (Spoiler: After he butchered it he realized he could have just taken a hammer and punch to the crimp marks)
http://www.fiatspider.com/f15/viewtopic.php?t=29756
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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If you look closely at your engine,
It has FOUR large fuel injectors pointed directly at the back of the intake valves!
No cold start valve is needed!
AIGH!!
WTF!?!
One of you actually needs to TRY IT!
You do NOT need the CSV for cold starting!!
So the motor cranks over two more times,
Who cares?
I'll take that over a burned-down bus any day.. 
Also love how people have 'bragged' about using the German braided hose!
That stuff is NOT compatible with the ethanol-based fuels they sell today!
It turns to taffy, leaks, and starts fires!
They say that stupidity *should* be painful,
But this is downright ridiculous...
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Maybe I'm not emphasizing the right word..
Take the fucking thing OFF!
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