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Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Hoody wrote:
I like the fact that you gentleman are thinking outside the box with the CSV. I was never crazy about the plastic OEM one. Unbalanced engines and age is definitely an issue. I am one of those that feels the stock FI is the way to go. There are a couple very simple things that need to be addressed. First and foremost is the correct fuel line. Gates Barricade....period. Second is the correct clamps for the fuel line. Third is that anyone who is running a 40 year old FI set up in their restored car should spend a couple of hundred more and install a state of the art fire suppression set up. I am not a fan of the melt down plastic tube one. By then the fire is already too big for my liking. I have a racing canister pointed directly at my CSV and the top of the engine. It's heat activated. So it goes off immediately when the temps go over the normal heat range of the engine. It does not destroy the rubber or any electronics. No clean up either. God forbid the magnesium in these type 4's catches fire....then all you can do is crack a beer bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.


Very little to none in the T-4 engine. Now the T-1 that's a whole different story.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

the entire fan shroud is magnesium alloy.
at least the pieces that flared off when I trimmed mine with a zip disc were Wink
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
the entire fan shroud is magnesium alloy.
at least the pieces that flared off when I trimmed mine with a zip disc were Wink


A very small amount overall and it would take an unusually tricky method to get it to ignite. Fire alone would not be enough.
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

BayCreamPuff wrote:
asiab3 wrote:
Does the Borg Banjo Branch clear the vacuum can on the distributor with room to spare?

Robbie


Just had a chance to fit it in the bus. It fits with about a half inch to the clip on the dizzy. The 5/16 banjo is quite large, so using a 1/4 would give you a little more space.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks for showing us the fit-up. That was my chief concern. So, will the 1/4 inch banjo bolts impede flow?
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aerosurfer
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Man that looks like a tight fit with using the late style metal fuel line too.

I'm planning on using a T and having a single banjo bolt off the CSV with it mounted 180* from above picture, so the plug is facing the other way.

I got a 5/16 brass tee, but am not sure about the space it will still take to run the second line and bend in the hose to the new CSV.

I found a barbed fuel pressure adapter and thought I could do an elbow might be more streamlined. I hope I'm not crazy for trying to make a small elbow, does anyone know a better way to match up AN type fittings, so I wouldn't have to have 2 different metals on this fabricated part?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152067626717

Elbow,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201460582599

If I could find a smaller adapter and use the smaller barb that came on the CSV would be even more streamlined. No need to worry about flow rates
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BayCreamPuff
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Here's the check valve installed. I'm missing the hard line between the FPR and tank. The hose in its place was dated 2002 and had the wrong clamps on it Shocked

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Just received my check valve. Picked up a small ATOM fire detector just for kicks mounted it in the engine compartment. Maybe, maybe it will alert if there's smoke/fire or smoke/no fire....

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Wasted youth wrote:
BayCreamPuff wrote:
asiab3 wrote:
Does the Borg Banjo Branch clear the vacuum can on the distributor with room to spare?

Robbie


Just had a chance to fit it in the bus. It fits with about a half inch to the clip on the dizzy. The 5/16 banjo is quite large, so using a 1/4 would give you a little more space.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks for showing us the fit-up. That was my chief concern. So, will the 1/4 inch banjo bolts impede flow?



instead of a double banjo, run a steel tee off the main hose between banks to a single banjo. You'll have less stresses on parts to deal with and less risk of vibration causing a leak.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:

instead of a double banjo, run a steel tee off the main hose between banks to a single banjo. You'll have less stresses on parts to deal with and less risk of vibration causing a leak.

And less of a pressure drop from one rail to the other.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

I can't believe no one has fabbed a hard swage solution to this attachment point yet. Put a nice loop in the feed line to relieve vibration and tension and this thing lasts 50 years
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BayCreamPuff
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Noticed a few things recently.

How many of us still have the 3/4 to CSV hard line zip tied to the intake runner?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The L-Jet Workshop manual shows the CSV outside of the main fuel loop. I realize it's more of a functional diagram, but seems having the CSV in the loop is optional.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As our hard lines break down what's the long term plan for replacing them? Has anyone thought of using the Vanagon style fuel rails (maybe the more modern aluminum ones). Here's a diagram I started putting together, but haven't fully thought through the routing of it all.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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aerosurfer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

The routing is the problem.... Like anything else, development time, materials and costs too. This was discussed about 6-8 pages ago in this thread. I think there are improvements to be made without necessarily creating new parts. This CSV being one of them. The metal lines could just as easily be replaced with proper sized metal brake line and flared for a secure fitment, taken a step further AN fittings too could be used, but now the costs have risen again.

If you could cut out the tubing inside the Plenum where the EGR attaches that would be a great place and an easy solution, but Alas I digress since that's not a simple mod, nor helpful to the Cali People.

Here is what I have ready to go in and some thoughts. Its been too hot to want to work on it ans I have been out of town, I really thought I would have this done by now otherwise....

I didn't want the Double banjo, simply because of how much of a premium space is right there. Plus for a part that runs for seconds only, its been forced to be an integral part of the current fuel system's design flow.

As pictured the mock-up has been done on a spare Plenum with nothing tightened down.

I wanted a T all along, initially I bought this piece,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But decided the bend in fuel hose would have been too great or too long, perhaps even placing it before the 3/4 bank or between the 1/2 and FPR (once again taking up more space than I wanted)

I ended up creating this T-Elbow design, Teflon or PTFE tape to be added to final application.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I figure I can either place it inline immediately after the 3/4 Cylinders, located behind/abeam the coil and run the dedicated line alonge side it, or make a very short line as pictured and have the T just to the left of the CSV/Plenum with the main line travelling right over the CSV to the 1/2 bank. Im not thrilled using 2 different metals, as it does look like a homemade hack, but it seems like a very solid and safe alternative. Does a 1/8" NPT Aluminum elbow just not exist? I searched every term I could think of.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I would have loved to use the original banjo that came with it, clearly Flow rate isn't the problem.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I even found a brass elbow in a 1/4" nipple, I couldn't find a FI rated line in the proper size, Gates advertises their non-FI hose as good for 50PSI, but just seem like I would be creating my own worst weak spot

As far as development, I would happily scavenge these CSV and put together the rest of the components in a Kit sell them as a modern alternative if I found something that makes me feel as safe in my own bus

As stated in an above post the links for my parts

Aluminum Fuel Pressure port

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152067626717

Elbow,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201460582599

And the 1/4" elbow that needs the proper fuel line

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-HOSE-BARB-ELBOW-X-1-8-...SwwbdWOCDh

This whole thread started because I sadly became a Statistic, Im working hard to become part of the (non-Subaru) Solution[/b]
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Last edited by aerosurfer on Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

The tee would go about 180 degrees 6 to 8 inches to the left of the CSV between banks, where it can be zip tied to a manifold so not to flop around. Then the csv line leaves the tee with a piece of line about 8 to 10" long and goes to one banjo. I would use the lighter tee you initially bought. Use the clamps with rounded shoulders.

FYI - I have my lines zip tied on either side of the CSV. Didn't want any extra stress on the CSV. Racing teaches you how easy it is to break things when stress is on them repetitively.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

My lines are Zip tied too, less for the CSV and more just to be out of the way.

That all metal T... Link to it BTW

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152025805904?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

If only these came in the sizes we needed....

http://www.buyfittingsonline.com/Beverage-Fittings...ended.aspx

Whats funny, or rather interesting, is I have a 2 foot length of grey braided German hose for a fuel pressure gauge in the tool box, and compared to the Gates stuff its a lot more pliable, and has a slightly larger ID. If only they could make that stuff to work better with the Ethanol blends this would be a no-brainer. The bend from the barbed T with Gates hose will round out to a larger radius, none of which are really visually appealing, Straight up, rearward, or wedged under the intake runner and back rearward.

Oh well its all trial and error, I have a bunch of O'Reilly Coupons to burn, so I will have plenty of fuel hose to play with.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:

Racing teaches you how easy it is to break things when stress is on them repetitively.



My thought for the shorter hose from elbow to banjo putting less stress and wiggle on the elbow. This part is so very light that the fuel lines would seem to absorb the vibrations. I dont think this is exactly like your broken Oil pressure Elbow you have talked about from the race car, both sides would be supported in this case, no?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

AutohausAZ carries the correct gasket for that CSV. I added a few with my last order from them.

http://www.autohausaz.com/pn/026906179A
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

When I was compiling the thought-experiment of implementing a WBX-Vanagon-inspired dual-loop system, I figured I would use one of these stainless-steel Eldon-James 5/16" Y-fittings to tap off a feed to the CSV:
http://www.eldonjames.com/?product=y0-5ss

Problem is, it's a little pricey. Grainger wants $62 for one. Eldon-James will sell them directly for $24 apiece, but it looks like their minimum order is 10.

Image courtesy of Walmart. Rolling Eyes
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Back in the day:
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

I have my parts and fuel line ready to go.... It waiting on new slightly larger fuel line clamps to come in the mail... I enjoyed that 3 page thread too

Kent, I do cede that I am going to use the one piece Tee after all just past the 3/4 fuel rail, the mockup wasn't as obtrusive with the second fuel line to the CSV.

I had a thought however.... Those one way check valves mentioned earlier, why not put one in-line with the new CSV line? Wouldn't this assure a good starting pressure always at the cold start valve. Another beneficial upgrade or just a potential fail point?

Even putting one after the pump, but before the 3/4 rail 'should' hold pressure on the system for future starts, if there is any bleed down in the pump.

For the record my current stock system tested well within spec per the Bentley and AFM guide
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

aerosurfer wrote:
I have my parts and fuel line ready to go.... It waiting on new slightly larger fuel line clamps to come in the mail... I enjoyed that 3 page thread too

Kent, I do cede that I am going to use the one piece Tee after all just past the 3/4 fuel rail, the mockup wasn't as obtrusive with the second fuel line to the CSV.

I had a thought however.... Those one way check valves mentioned earlier, why not put one in-line with the new CSV line? Wouldn't this assure a good starting pressure always at the cold start valve. Another beneficial upgrade or just a potential fail point?

Even putting one after the pump, but before the 3/4 rail 'should' hold pressure on the system for future starts, if there is any bleed down in the pump.

For the record my current stock system tested well within spec per the Bentley and AFM guide


IMO you are adding more points of failure. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

SlowLane wrote:
When I was compiling the thought-experiment of implementing a WBX-Vanagon-inspired dual-loop system, I figured I would use one of these stainless-steel Eldon-James 5/16" Y-fittings to tap off a feed to the CSV:
http://www.eldonjames.com/?product=y0-5ss

Problem is, it's a little pricey. Grainger wants $62 for one. Eldon-James will sell them directly for $24 apiece, but it looks like their minimum order is 10.

Image courtesy of Walmart. Rolling Eyes
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Call them up, pretend to be a college student and tell them you need 2 for a school project. I do this all the time and usually get the small quantity I need super inexpensive or free. Can't hurt to ask.
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