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curtp07
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Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 874
Location: Mass
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Sound like it would be great if not for the extra "T" fitting the end result of which is just adding more complexity...more parts, more lines to leak, on something we're not even sure is the problem.
Aren't there plenty of people here who have run tens of thousands of miles without issues? Maybe ask the condition of their components? Wiring? Hoses?
Interesting work though. Neat to see it come together, though still no cause/effect. Just speculation.
Again - my vote is on wiring harness.
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
Posts: 769
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| curtp07 wrote: |
Sound like it would be great if not for the extra "T" fitting the end result of which is just adding more complexity...more parts, more lines to leak, on something we're not even sure is the problem.
Aren't there plenty of people here who have run tens of thousands of miles without issues? Maybe ask the condition of their components? Wiring? Hoses?
Interesting work though. Neat to see it come together, though still no cause/effect. Just speculation.
Again - my vote is on wiring harness. |
I agree with everything you're saying, but this isn't adding an extra tee fitting, just replacing the plastic tee with a steel banjo tee that will hold up longer.
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Cream Puff
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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I would use the double banjo bolt set up, if it fit. Nice thing about that, is you can turn the fittings a little, and no tee fitting if that is a concern. Forming up steel lines or flexible braided lines with compression fittings off of that would be the next move. Of course, the CSV for our buses use a plastic molded tee, so the idea against using a brass tee fitting seems a little misplaced.
And like Skills mentioned, a fused wiring harness would be an improvement. Securing a newly-fused harness out of the way and off rubbing parts instead of it just laying on top of everything might go a long way.
 How many Rabbit engine fires can be attributed to a bad CSV or questionable wiring harness? |
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| None of the circuit that feed into FI are fused; #15, #30, or #50. |
True. Added those fuses a couple months back.
[/quote]
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curtp07
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Joined: November 28, 2007
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Location: Mass
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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The fuses are a great addition. After my beetle fire, I did just that. No problems since (not that it proves anything).
The unfused hot wire is just a bad bad VW design (one of many no matter what anyone says to defend it).
I see what you're saying about the fitting now, though I'm still not sold on replacing what we have when we're not even sure it's the issue...
But the fuses...yes!
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
How many Rabbit engine fires can be attributed to a bad CSV or questionable wiring harness? |
The bad thing about the Transport compared to most any other vehicle out there is that the tank it positioned above the engine and once a fire gets a good start fuel will gravity feed into the engine compartment. On fuel injected buses are particularly there is nothing to keep gasoline from running backwards through the fuel return once the line on the tank side of the FPR burns through. The fuel pump will at least stop the flow on the supply side, but nothing in the original setup stops it on the return side.
A fire from a bad CSV on a Rabbit or other vehicle may char a few wires before the engine shuts down and the supply of fuel to the fire burns off, but on a Transporter the whole vehicle ends up being consumed. |
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Tcash
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danfromsyr
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Fuel line 1 way valves are like $5 shipped. and would work just dandy in the fuel return line. though it'd make 2 more clamped connections.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trks...p;_sacat=0
and carb'd vans can get a 12v fuel shut off valve that's tripped on with the Ign. (i'd wire with a relay)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_nkw=12+volt+fuel+shut+off+valve&_frs=1
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Wasted youth wrote: |
How many Rabbit engine fires can be attributed to a bad CSV or questionable wiring harness? |
The bad thing about the Transport compared to most any other vehicle out there is that the tank it positioned above the engine and once a fire gets a good start fuel will gravity feed into the engine compartment. On fuel injected buses are particularly there is nothing to keep gasoline from running backwards through the fuel return once the line on the tank side of the FPR burns through. The fuel pump will at least stop the flow on the supply side, but nothing in the original setup stops it on the return side.
A fire from a bad CSV on a Rabbit or other vehicle may char a few wires before the engine shuts down and the supply of fuel to the fire burns off, but on a Transporter the whole vehicle ends up being consumed. |
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curtp07
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Posts: 874
Location: Mass
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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The 1 way valve is also on my list! Thanks for the link.
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BayCreamPuff
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV [4] CSV [cold start valve] Replacement |
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Take a look at how the Mercedes CSV uses a threaded male adapter.
https://goo.gl/qjDDJx
Rather than buying all these banjo fittings, why not just use the Mercedes style male adapter approach and attach a female branch tee with 8mm barbs.
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danfromsyr
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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usually the CIS threaded adapters are for a flare type hose fitting. so you'd need both parts. and I don't think a threaded T will work.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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I have been advocating that people add such for years. I have a similar valve in the return hose on one of my Vanagons and have one of the valves shown on order for my other Vanagon. |
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Tcash
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Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV [4] CSV [cold start valve] Replacement |
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| BayCreamPuff wrote: |
Take a look at how the Mercedes CSV uses a threaded male adapter.
https://goo.gl/qjDDJx
Rather than buying all these banjo fittings, why not just use the Mercedes style male adapter approach and attach a female branch tee with 8mm barbs. |
That would work better if you can find the right "T" fitting. The adapter would push the "T" out enough to clear the plug.
Tcash |
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Parts arrived and I started staging it out on my spare plenum. Again, this is just about trying to fit a different (more modern) CSV on the bus. I'm not saying the factory one is causing any problems. Just curious.
I went with a 5/16 hose barb since that's the size of the fuel rail, but a 1/4 will probably work and be a little lower profile.
The 5/16 banjo is quite a bit larger than the one that came on this CSV
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Cream Puff
'79 CA Stock FI Deluxe Campmobile
Earl Grey
'87 GoWesty 2.2 Westfalia
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'00 Eurovan VR6 Full Camper |
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I have been advocating that people add such for years. I have a similar valve in the return hose on one of my Vanagons and have one of the valves shown on order for my other Vanagon. |
Picked one of these up and just want to verify a couple things before I install it on my factory FI type 4.
1. I assume I should be installing this between the FPR and the gas tank and not inside the engine bay? Closer to the FPR or gas tank?
2. How exactly does the check valve work? Does it require a certain PSI to let the fuel flow? If so is there enough pressure on the other side of the FPR for it to work?
Thanks!
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| BayCreamPuff wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I have been advocating that people add such for years. I have a similar valve in the return hose on one of my Vanagons and have one of the valves shown on order for my other Vanagon. |
Picked one of these up and just want to verify a couple things before I install it on my factory FI type 4.
1. I assume I should be installing this between the FPR and the gas tank and not inside the engine bay? Closer to the FPR or gas tank?
2. How exactly does the check valve work? Does it require a certain PSI to let the fuel flow? If so is there enough pressure on the other side of the FPR for it to work?
Thanks! |
I installed my valve close to the tank and used steel line between the FPR and the valve where I could instead of the original plastic line. The fuel pressure forces the valve open and when the fuel pressure is lost for any reason the spring in the valve shuts it stopping a reverse in the fuel flow. For the marine anti-siphon valves there is a spec for the opening pressure of something like 1.5 psi. Yes there is plenty of pressure to open the valve on the down stream side of the FPR. |
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airschooled
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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Does the Borg Banjo Branch clear the vacuum can on the distributor with room to spare?
Robbie
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Hoody
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| I like the fact that you gentleman are thinking outside the box with the CSV. I was never crazy about the plastic OEM one. Unbalanced engines and age is definitely an issue. I am one of those that feels the stock FI is the way to go. There are a couple very simple things that need to be addressed. First and foremost is the correct fuel line. Gates Barricade....period. Second is the correct clamps for the fuel line. Third is that anyone who is running a 40 year old FI set up in their restored car should spend a couple of hundred more and install a state of the art fire suppression set up. I am not a fan of the melt down plastic tube one. By then the fire is already too big for my liking. I have a racing canister pointed directly at my CSV and the top of the engine. It's heat activated. So it goes off immediately when the temps go over the normal heat range of the engine. It does not destroy the rubber or any electronics. No clean up either. God forbid the magnesium in these type 4's catches fire....then all you can do is crack a beer bend over and kiss your ass goodbye. |
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BayCreamPuff
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Joined: August 10, 2015
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Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Does the Borg Banjo Branch clear the vacuum can on the distributor with room to spare?
Robbie |
Just had a chance to fit it in the bus. It fits with about a half inch to the clip on the dizzy. The 5/16 banjo is quite large, so using a 1/4 would give you a little more space.
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vwwestyman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right |
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About the fuel anti-siphon valves.
On reading about them here, I ordered two sets of two, for the '73 and the '78. ('73 now has fuel injection.)
I tried one out on the '78 while I had it apart, but it didn't stop even a gallon or so of diesel from running out of the tank.
I speculate that it might work for preventing a siphon on a boat, but at least the ones I got did not seem able to prevent the fuel from just draining out.
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