Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18  Next
Jump to:
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
aerosurfer
Samba Member


Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
aerosurfer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:52 am    Post subject: Engine CSV fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Confession, venting, and any advice or imput for what happened to me yesterday. Tcash, here is another one for the fire files.

Preface; Had the motor out in January to replace all fuel lines, re-route some wires, clean up connections and other general easy access housekeeping for the engine and engine bay.

Used Gates 30r14 hoses. Proper fuel clamps at all points. Have put a few hundred miles on the bus the last 2 months with excellent starting and great predicable performance. Have both CHT and custom O2 sensor with consistent figures as a trend monitoring.

Go out to start on a cool 50s morning in Georgia, bus fires right up. Run back inside to lock up and on my way back into the garage notice the bus is idling low, go to pop the deck to look at the motor and/or give it a blip of the throttle body only to find a steady fire blazing at the top center of the engine. OH SHIT...

Via the passenger side I run to the front, briefly think to back it out of the garage in case I cant get the fire out, but instead turn off the ignition, run to slider grab the fire extinguisher and go back in total disbelief, still at the sight of the motor burning. a Single shot of the extinguisher puts out the fire.

After the agent settles, I disconnect the battery and start trying to figure out WTF happened. As im still staring in disbelief, I can hear the fuel pressure making a slight girgle/hissing noise right around the cold start injector. I relieved the fuel pressure via the relief port. All I can figure is that the line had worked its back off the Cold start, or some failure of the injector itself at the housing.

I still had to be somewhere, so I poured two cups of water around the fire area to cool any hot spots and wash away any remaining gas and had to leave.

My bus is overall fine, the worst was my previously excellent condition Harness is now torched right in the middle, the vacuum T off the distributor melted, and a connector at the booster fan melted, but the wires were ok. My once clean engine bay is now powdery white, I lost a Cold start valve and while most likely fine the connector on my Aux Air regulator was a little melted, I have spares for both, and had a little melted insulation overhead

Once I got everything off, unfortunately no obvious failure points, although I figure fuel leaking onto the harness area under the plenum was ignited by vapors in and around the distributor, or ran down onto the exhaust and back drafted up. The fuel lines didnt show any fatigue, leak or failure point. The cold start valve while melted at the connector, seemed fine otherwise. The harness took the worst of the burning, with no damage to the Dizzy, plug wires, oil relocation hose, breather (thank goodness) or plenum. Car was running for less than 2 minutes

I have a spare harness I'm going to clean up today and reinstall, as well as all the other components, all I will need is new fuel line between the cylinder banks. My plan is to install it and secure to the Cold start off the car then install and hook it to the rails. I have been trying to blow out and shop vac out the powdery agent residue. Is this stuff anything I need to worry about scoring the metal or oxidizing if it clumps in unreachable areas? Or how much of it may get ingested when it runs again. Im due for an oil change anyways so that will come right after I get the engine warmed up. I'd like to not have to pull the motor again.

One observation is not only have a fire extinguisher handy, but know exactly how to use it. I wasted what seemed like forever, but really was only 2 seconds after I pulled the pin squeezing the housing not the trigger. I feel lucky it wasn't worse, but with good preparation both prefire and now in the rebuilding.

Any other thoughts? Im still not sure how I would have prevented this. I was on my way to a volunteer at Stop Hunger Now food packaging meetup, so I cant even say Karma got to me.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The line looks split in the above picture, its not...both lines at the Cold Start were intact internally when I pulled them off. My only real though was the clamp on one side is farther out on the barb than the other side. Maybe thats where the leak was
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)


Last edited by aerosurfer on Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore


Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
Stuartzickefoose is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Wonder if that harness or injector shorted electrically?

Damn fine work putting it out...from experience it's not always that quick to put out and you did a great job!

Get that white out of there asap it's extremely corrosive and if I remember right water makes it worse so if you rinse it then get it all out for sure.
_________________
Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
[email protected]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
aerosurfer
Samba Member


Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
aerosurfer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Stuartzickefoose wrote:
Wonder if that harness or injector shorted electrically?

Damn fine work putting it out...from experience it's not always that quick to put out and you did a great job!

Get that white out of there asap it's extremely corrosive and if I remember right water makes it worse so if you rinse it then get it all out for sure.


Electrical short did occur to me, but the bus has been running so well and was through the fire even; I find it hard that a legitimate short was powerful enough to burn up the harness, turn into a large open flame, but still keep running. All the while fuel leaks are known and notorious....Occam's Razor type thinking.

Stuartzickefoose wrote:
Get that white out of there asap it's extremely corrosive and if I remember right water makes it worse so if you rinse it then get it all out for sure.


GRRRREEEEEEEEAT Rolling Eyes
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead


Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16802
Location: sticksville, ct.
skills@eurocarsplus is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

I have seen this a couple of times.

I would be willing to bet that your CSV came "un crimped" and just simply gave up the ghost. a tell tale sign is if the connector or T section where fuel passes through was wiggly.

I bet the cold weather just shrunk the o ring in the CSV, and sprayed a mist of fuel which the distributor ignited

thankfully, you caught it and there was no "real" damage.

I hate to say it, but these old systems are just not worth the risk anymore. I have a customer here with a FI bug and several waivers were signed before work commenced on the car.

there are hardly any new/NOS parts for these...the systems are pushing 40+ years old. again, glad you caught it and were prepared.

I know a lot of guys get off on originality, and HAVE to stay that way to pass emissions but man, I would be looking for a more modern option
_________________
gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69 Premium Member
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13382
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

http://jogrusa.com/products/blazecut-fire-suppression-system

Sorry to hear this happened to ya. I think if my bus was fuel injected, I'd install one of these as well for extra insurance. It sounds as though you were pretty quick with your fire extinguisher too.

It's amazing how many bus fire threads seem to be the fuel injected ones. With 28psi fuel pressure, It make sense.

I hope you get it all quickly dialed back in.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc

Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.

**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours**
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
aerosurfer
Samba Member


Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
aerosurfer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
I have seen this a couple of times.

I would be willing to bet that your CSV came "un crimped" and just simply gave up the ghost. a tell tale sign is if the connector or T section where fuel passes through was wiggly.

I bet the cold weather just shrunk the o ring in the CSV, and sprayed a mist of fuel which the distributor ignited


Nailed it I think. It is loose and I did leave that out of my original description, but I noticed that when I got it off the plenum.

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
I hate to say it, but these old systems are just not worth the risk anymore. I have a customer here with a FI bug and several waivers were signed before work commenced on the car.

there are hardly any new/NOS parts for these...the systems are pushing 40+ years old. again, glad you caught it and were prepared.

I know a lot of guys get off on originality, and HAVE to stay that way to pass emissions but man, I would be looking for a more modern option


Hold onto the I told you so for now.... I have so many other parts to burn up first. But I'm seeing the light you preach more and more.

BTW and off topic, I was at a pull-a-part yard the other day and there was a 96 outback with a full motor still in it, I see the Subie guys refer to EJ__ this or that, but what years/models are you generally building from.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead


Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16802
Location: sticksville, ct.
skills@eurocarsplus is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

no "I told you so" from my end...I would never kick a man when he's down. when you crawl up a hill and eat a valve...well maybe Laughing

it's sad, but using this old FI stuff is just waiting for self destruction. I own a CIS car, and those parts are getting scarce too Crying or Very sad
_________________
gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history


Last edited by skills@eurocarsplus on Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
richparker
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6936
Location: Durango, CO
richparker is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Oh man, I'm super bummed for you. You're lucky you got it out right away...I was not so lucky with my old '78 when I was in college. It burned all the way down to nothing, only the front bumper was Salvageable. I hope to read you have it back on the road soon.
_________________
__________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tcash
Samba Member


Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Tcash is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Bummer
The gas had to have a point of ignition.
You may want to check your coil, cap and wires for leaks.
Ignition High Tension Leaks

Good luck
Tcash
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
aerosurfer
Samba Member


Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
aerosurfer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Bummer
The gas had to have a point of ignition.
You may want to check your coil, cap and wires for leaks.
Ignition High Tension Leaks

Good luck
Tcash


Ill check it out when get everything back together
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
levi20AE
Samba Member


Joined: June 24, 2005
Posts: 485
Location: Las Vegas, NV
levi20AE is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

I know the feeling. Just had an engine fire last month and had to rebuild the engine harness and other wiring as a result. The best thing you can do for these old fire prone cars is get a blazecut.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can see where the blazecut ruptured and put out the fire just above the burned out carb. It had the fire out before I could even get the bus stopped. At $90-$100 they are worth there weight in gold.
_________________
1973 Campmobile http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524511&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
20th AE VW GTI - 369hp 340tq @ 26 PSI
1982 Rabbit Pickup - German AAZ 1.9TD - daily with lots of MPGs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Classifieds Feedback
Amskeptic
Samba Member


Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
Amskeptic is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

aerosurfer wrote:


GRRRREEEEEEEEAT



You did. Now get the mess cleaned up. Considering the sheets of flowing gasoline that I have had coursing over my transaxle and exhaust system from a failed fuel sender o-ring, I have to say that you merely had an unlucky concordance of gasoline vapor and a spark.

Don't get all paranoid and start crushing fuel clamps all over. You can have unintended consequences, such as hoses so stuck on the cold start valve that you get tough trying to twist them off and cause a leak between the plastic and the body of the cold start valve.

This especially happens all over the country with carbureted Volkswagens. People clamp the hell out of the fuel hoses because they keep hearing how fire-prone these cars are. Then they get violent trying to get the damn hose off the carburetor or fuel pump, and they loosen the press fit of the brass nipple in the pot metal. There's your ticking time bomb with all those nice hoses and clamps!

I hate seeing how many people are sold whatever hose happens to be behind the counter at the local parts store. The fit of these hoses is far more specific than "aw, it'll work, just clamp it down good," or "try greasing the end of the hose and cramming it on, it'll go."

I strongly suggest that you and all of us carefully make sure that all ignition wires on all of your cars everywhere and always are properly laid out, plastic clipped and in excellent condition with secure boots.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Glad you got it out before a fuel line burned though and really added fuel to the fire. Having that CS injector snuggled up right next to the distributor always did seem to be asking from trouble.

If you went with the Digijet FI off of a 83-85 Vanagon you would eliminate the CSV.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50255

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Bummer
The gas had to have a point of ignition.
You may want to check your coil, cap and wires for leaks.
Ignition High Tension Leaks

Good luck
Tcash


Running a pointless ignition would remove one source of ignition and buying and installing the plastic shield that is supposed to go below the rotor would delay gas vapors from reaching the interior of the distributor cap. One would hopefully be able to smell a gas leak before any reached the alternator and was thus ignited.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
aerosurfer
Samba Member


Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
aerosurfer is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Tcash wrote:
Bummer
The gas had to have a point of ignition.
You may want to check your coil, cap and wires for leaks.
Ignition High Tension Leaks

Good luck
Tcash


Running a pointless ignition would remove one source of ignition and buying and installing the plastic shield that is supposed to go below the rotor would delay gas vapors from reaching the interior of the distributor cap. One would hopefully be able to smell a gas leak before any reached the alternator and was thus ignited.


I do run a pertronix system as well as have the dust cover installed. While its all out i just swapped with a spare distributor and cap, rotor and pertronics i had on the shelf.

So far i have my new (old) harnesss cleaned up and ready to be installed. Just been cleaning the engine bay as best i can. Air and shop vac, and now spraying everything doen with brake clean and carb cleaner, hitting all electrical connections with electical cleaner and dielectric grease. Off to get new fuel and vac lines. Then reinstall everything. May actually run it today.

Thanks everyone for advice and support. Gonna look into the blazecut system in the near future
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TomWesty
Samba Member


Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
TomWesty is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Good save man! I hope you have no big problems getting her back up and running.
_________________
If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
timvw7476
Samba Member


Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2180
Location: seattle
timvw7476 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

I've been looking sideways at CSVs for decade or more....
at least you vigilant owners are catching these early enough to
indicate the CSV should be a swap out part @ 60 or 90k intervals.
Time bombs with 36lbs pressure behind them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tom Powell
Samba Member


Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
Tom Powell is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Questions:

Do late bays with FI T4's have more engine fires than early bays? Do Vanagons have more fires than FI bays? Do FI systems have more fires than carbureted systems?

I Googled VW fires images. There were more photos of late bay fires. Quite a few splitties. I was surprised there were only a few Vanagons.

Aloha
tp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69 Premium Member
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13382
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:
Questions:

Do late bays with FI T4's have more engine fires than early bays? Do Vanagons have more fires than FI bays? Do FI systems have more fires than carbureted systems?

I Googled VW fires images. There were more photos of late bay fires. Quite a few splitties. I was surprised there were only a few Vanagons.

Aloha
tp


In all the years I've been on this site, the vast majority of the bus fire threads I've seen have been late bays with fuel injection.

You have to be really unlucky to burn a type 1 engine powered bus. Usually it is the press in brass pipes on the carb or fuel pump that come out. Now most folks drill and install a screw in barbed fitting on the carb inlet. Then, they'll remove the nipples for the fuel pump and epoxy them in place.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc

Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.

**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours**
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cmonSTART
Samba Member


Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
cmonSTART is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine fire, even after everything is done right Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing that info about the CSV - honestly that was my first thought, but only because lately I've noticed mine wiggles a bit where the plastic tee fits into the metal body. Just doesn't seem right.. New unit is on the way.

Really good info there, skills, thanks for posting that.

Sorry about your fire - hope you get things patched up quickly with minimal pain!
_________________
'78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18  Next
Jump to:
Page 1 of 18

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.