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Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus)
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66ratrod
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:45 pm    Post subject: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

So I've decided that it's time to swap my bus over to TDI.
I'm working on designing the cooling system and mounts to keep everything clean, hidden, and safe.
The donor is a 2002 TDI beetle (so 1.9 ALH engine).

I can handle the mechanical and structural issues, I'm more concerned about how I'm going to handle the ECU.

How would I go about making the ECU able to run without the "rest of the car". I'm planning on keeping only the engine harness and ECU plug. Essentially a plug and play set-up.

I know I'll probably need an immobilizer delete, but clueless to everything else..

I'm an aircooled mechanic in a watercooled land, lend me your wisdom (please)
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Talk to Jeff at rocketchip, he can do a immobilizer delete, EGR delete, and a stage 1 or 2 tune for you. Ideally, you will need to do some work on the trans to bring the revs down, diesels don't like & aren't as efficient in the RPM range that the stock trans are geared for.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

You will need to retain some of the body harness, the TDI is a "throttle by wire" & it might be nice to figure out how to retain cruise control (which will also require clutch & brake switches). The diag port would also be useful.
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66ratrod
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

I remember reading about that "throttle by wire" set-up.
Those pedals won't fit into a split bus without looking ridiculous, but I did see how a bay TDI conversion mounted a Jetta pedal potentiometer in a marine box under the body. It was pulled by a short throttle cable attached to the stock pedal, and apparently works fine.

For now I'm just using it around town, I do plan on getting the transmission upgraded in the near future though.

I would like to keep the diagnostic port.

Thank you, I'll talk to Jeff and get this figured out!
I'll be back with pictures of the beast when I've made more progress.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Was that in my thread (below) you saw the potentiometer mounted under the Bus?

My Jetta motor is from a '97 so it is a bit earlier generation than the engine you're using.

Your Beetle TDI's potentiometer is a part of the accelerator pedal mechanism. Mine was separate and originally used a very small cable. I've seen at least one conversion where the pedal/pot was mounted inside the bus and working fine.

I was told that the newer pot and pedal assembly could be used with my motor but I never looked into it closely. If that was true, then likely you could use the older pot under the bus like I did.

I think a chip tune should take care of all the other issues you're concerned about, including the immobilizer.

The comments on gearing are correct. I thought I could make it better with tall tires but that didn't really help that much.

The cruise control is very nice!

My diagnostic plug is in the glove box at the moment.
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66ratrod
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Yes it was!
I read through your thread for ideas and to see your methods for making everything work.

I'll look into the pedal assembly and see if I can use an earlier potentiometer. I'd much rather have the underbody box/stock pedal set-up. If not, I'm sure I can figure out how to properly modify the new assembly into something that looks a bit nicer.
Still doing my homework before I just dive in.

Going into a 1966 Split Bus btw.
My DD for the past 8 years (since I began driving).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

66ratrod wrote:
Yes it was!
I read through your thread for ideas and to see your methods for making everything work.

I'll look into the pedal assembly and see if I can use an earlier potentiometer. I'd much rather have the underbody box/stock pedal set-up. If not, I'm sure I can figure out how to properly modify the new assembly into something that looks a bit nicer.
Still doing my homework before I just dive in.

Going into a 1966 Split Bus btw.
My DD for the past 8 years (since I began driving).


Cool! Hopefully you found it helpful and learned some Dos and Don'ts!

That box I used was a waterproof electrical box from Home Depot or similar, not a marine unit.

The "push button to accelerate" feature of the cruse control proved handy when my accelerator cable broke last summer! I was able to idle along in 1st, shift to 2nd and idle along and so forth to 4th gear where idling along in 4th got me going fast enough to then use the cruise to speed up.

Luckily, I was not too far from a fellow VW guy's house, so he helped me get home more easily by tying a sturdy string to the cable. I leaned out the window to pull the cable and speed up!

When you get started, send me a link to your build thread. I don't pop into the split forums much so I might not see it otherwise.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Another option for the gas pedal could be to use one from a 5th gen body car. They mount to the floor, not suspended from the dash like the 4th gen cars.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

That looks like a great idea. I wonder how compatible the potentiometer is?

I noticed this design in my friend's '14ish Passat when I borrowed it a few weeks ago and wondered about using it in a conversion.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

I can't imagine it would be different, the potentiometers are just sending opposite voltage signals back to the ECM, one goes from about .5v to 4.5v, and the other 4.5v to .5v.
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66ratrod
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

73sports wrote:
Another option for the gas pedal could be to use one from a 5th gen body car. They mount to the floor, not suspended from the dash like the 4th gen cars.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That's a great option also, that would look fine in the bus.
VWWestyman, I'll be sure to send you a link, so you can pop in and check out the progress.
I'm so excited to get started!

I've come up with ram air radiator set-up. It would have the radiator mounted behind the beam at a 45* angle, with some sheet metal ducting to move air more smoothly away from the backside of the radiator.
A splash pan would be used as a template to make a custom sheetmetal scoop that would direct air from under the bumper to the radiator.

I want to model it in 3d and optimize the dimensions for fluid flow (engineering school computer programs are amazing!) before I build anything.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

That reasoning makes sense to me, except they are listed as different gas to diesel.

I can't imagine why they would have made them different, though, as it seems like it would have had to be easier for VW to make the same part provide the input, and just code the computer to interpret that input however they needed.

In looking at pics of different ones on Ebay, it does appear that at least the plug is different from the MKIV model and the newer ones.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

True, I was thinking of the signals between a throttle body and the gas pedal on a gas car. The ALH diesel has no throttle body, it's the amount of fuel being delivered that is what controls the throttle. So that would make sense that they would be different. VW changed to the PD diesel during the run of the 4th gen cars, and this engine was used until the end of '06. As long as those engines use the same throttle input, then one of the floor mount pedals would work.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

I didn't realize that style of pedal was used so early; though I haven't really been in an '06-style Jetta.

I see your reasoning on the difference between gas and diesel, though it still seems like it wouldn't have been difficult for VW to code the different computers to be able to interpret the same voltage signal or whatever as the engine needed. Especially coding the diesel's computer to interpret the signal from the gas pedal, because the amount of fuel injected is determined by the ECU based on pedal input.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

The TDI is the earliest use of drive by wire in the US for VW starting in the 96 Passat. I'm not sure now if or how the throttle signal is different between gas and diesel. I'll have to see if I can dig up my old books from TDI school.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

If you don't mind, that would probably be useful info to know for sure as more and more of us are going to these types of things.

My throttle solution works fine, but I've always thought it could probably be a little more smooth.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Been looking, haven't found the info yet. Found a book on the PD diesel, but it doesn't talk about the throttle signal.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine swap ECU (new to TDI, going into daily driver bus) Reply with quote

Diesels do use the same throttle input signal as the gas cars. 2 potentiometers in the pedal, one sends a signal of 4.5v and it goes to .5v, and the other starts at .5v and goes to 4.5v.
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