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Kharon8 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2011 Posts: 375 Location: Espoo, Finland
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:01 am Post subject: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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One of the local libraries have bought a 3d-printer (Ultimaker) and anyone can go and print whatever they want as long as it's a small piece, max. few inches.
I'm quite surprised on this.
Material is cheap PLA but for many uses it's enough.
But what I was looking for is the ideas for pieces to print: Something that is otherwise impossible to find and where strength is not needed as PLA isn't very strong material after printing.
Suggestions welcome.
I do know that a friend of mine is printing connector bodies for his own car (not VW) as factory doesn't sell them anymore and the original ones where literally crumbling away. _________________ Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Kharon8 wrote: |
One of the local libraries have bought a 3d-printer (Ultimaker) and anyone can go and print whatever they want as long as it's a small piece, max. few inches.
I'm quite surprised on this.
Material is cheap PLA but for many uses it's enough.
But what I was looking for is the ideas for pieces to print: Something that is otherwise impossible to find and where strength is not needed as PLA isn't very strong material after printing.
Suggestions welcome.
I do know that a friend of mine is printing connector bodies for his own car (not VW) as factory doesn't sell them anymore and the original ones where literally crumbling away. |
PLA or polylactate plastic....is terrible for anything.....most expecially electrical plugs or anything automotive.
You do know that PLA is biodegradable. ....right? |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:12 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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3d-priting is not that expensive nowadays, so you can select better materials from specialized companies. I've used them: http://www.shapeways.com/
Shapeways has an amazing selection of materials (even ceramics and stainles steel) and i've been very happy with them. Here in Finland I have used this company recently:
http://www.materflow.com/fi
They can print quite large single piece objects which is very handy in my work (industrial design). If anyone needs help in 3d-modeling stuff for our cars i can help
Maybe we can print a whole car some day
_________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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Kharon8 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2011 Posts: 375 Location: Espoo, Finland
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
PLA or polylactate plastic....is terrible for anything.....most expecially electrical plugs or anything automotive.
You do know that PLA is biodegradable. ....right? |
I know. But that's a slow process and it's not directly water soluble, it would need a compost or something similar to break down.
Strength of course is very low.
That's why I was asking, I couldn't imagine anything useful. _________________ Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group. |
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Kharon8 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2011 Posts: 375 Location: Espoo, Finland
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Lahti411 wrote: |
3d-priting is not that expensive nowadays, so you can select better materials from specialized companies. |
Yes, I know. But the idea here was to do something myself (and for free, that's always nice), even if not very useful by itself.
Nice pics, btw. _________________ Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group. |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:30 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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This sounds great. I haven't searched much for 3D printing in the USA, but I wonder if it's available.
There is one part I would love to duplicate, and haven't accomplished it yet with any success. It's the pressed cardboard or composite trim on the inside just under the rear window on a 411 sedan. It's about 6 to 8 inches wide with the oval openings next to the window to circulate air to the outside, and runs the full length of the window. Mine as others has deteriorated due to heat from the sun.
Would it be possible to 3D print one of these-------if someone has a good one? Bob |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2011 Posts: 1593 Location: Louisville, ky
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:50 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Something impossible to find and strength not needed. I got one. I removed the cracked foam dash from my 73 standard and found a pretty, once the holes were patched metal dash. I trimmed the vents down to not look stupid, but if one could print them in plastic, you could make an awesome fit and look. The vent right above the glove box, needs some help.
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:12 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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titan3c wrote: |
This sounds great. I haven't searched much for 3D printing in the USA, but I wonder if it's available.
There is one part I would love to duplicate, and haven't accomplished it yet with any success. It's the pressed cardboard or composite trim on the inside just under the rear window on a 411 sedan. It's about 6 to 8 inches wide with the oval openings next to the window to circulate air to the outside, and runs the full length of the window. Mine as others has deteriorated due to heat from the sun.
Would it be possible to 3D print one of these-------if someone has a good one? Bob |
Kharon8.....actually Polylactone.....with heat added inside of say....the engine compartment. ...start breakijg it down almost immediately.
BUT..... dont let that stop you! There are many plastics available fot 3D printers and a wide range of differences and potential design pros and cons. The Polylactone material is being used BECAUSE its a public library.
The material in a public place needs to be non-toxic and biodegradable. Its actually a fairly accurate material dimensionally and works well for making prototypes for other types of molding.
TITAN3C. ....there are 3D printing businesses virtually all around you these days. Some are serious and have many resins and can be quite expensive but can make nearly industrial grade parts depending on the material used and the design.
Titan3c. .....funny you should mention the rear valance part. I should have them available sometime this year.
About 6 years ago.....a member either here or on the STF....was getting rid of his car or parting out.....and sent me an exceent condition one to make a mold from. Its been an off and on project.....mainly exploring what material would be useful and economical to mold such a big part with.
After some testing I have narrowed it down a bit. With the temperatures this area sees in the summer......over 120° common.....and moisture in the winter.....virtually all of the castable plastics are out. They will deform in no time.
Actually cardboard is not a bad material......a ground paper pulp mixed with a resin.....but the resin would have to be water based acrylic to be long term stable and short term affordable.
One of the best materials I have tested.....is granulated cork. The problem I have found with paperboard and granulated cork.....is the same issue that the original suffers from.....and that is if something heavy is put in the back area.....you can easily crush or crack this valance.
The mold itself...will be basically a crate with baffels. I can make it of poly coated plaster if I am going to mold a liquid/paste......or......and this brings me to a method I am leaning toward.......I can make the mold of fine portland cement.
With this last mold type.....I would probably make the part....from 2-3 thin sheets (.012" thick) aluminum with a sprayed layer of rubberized undercoating between each layer.
This brings material cost to under $40 for each part.
The first layer of 3003 alloy formable sheet is taped down and then forced into the fine mold features/recesses using a leather shot bag on the end of a needle scaler on low pressure. Spray on the undercoated....let it tack up about 85% apply the second sheet, tack up slightly, apply the third sheet and then lower the inner form into it to press it evenly.
What you will get is a smooth aluminum, fairly rigid part with some elastic flexibility. It will be about 98% the same dimensionally as the original or better. You can then paint it with plasticote matte black texture spray and it should do well.
Then cut out the oval vent holes with a dremel before painting.
As soon as I get my front end back on the ground in the next month or so, and the transmission rebuild done....I could probably get this one started in early summer. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:49 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Hey Ray----- That is fantastic----Let me know when you can make one, I'm ready. Another interesting thought. How practical would it be to make a "install over" dash to cover the cracked dashes? Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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titan3c wrote: |
Hey Ray----- That is fantastic----Let me know when you can make one, I'm ready. Another interesting thought. How practical would it be to make a "install over" dash to cover the cracked dashes? Bob |
Its one of those items I have kicked around off and on over the years. I have quite a bit of experience with vacuum forming.
I could make one. But......it would not be an easy one to make.
First....the apperatus......which is not hard to make......but getting good heater grids, the vacuum pump and making the mold or buck (a combination of plaster frame, polyester and urethane), the steel strap blanket frame and silicone sheeting.......about $1500 .....only about $150-200 is in the mold itself. Not out of the question over the period of say a year.
But.....if you take a look at the dash itself.....the overhang over the instrument face area......is a VERY deep draw for vacuum forming. This would mean a really high temp heatijg cycle.....some pre-shaping/thinning to areas of the sheet....and a lot of stretch throughs.....a lot of testing and pre-trial bad parts.
This is not like the guy in the bus forums who did a home vacuum form or rubber mold (can't remember which method he used.....but he did an excellent job)......the bus dash is easy. No really deep draws.
In the end.....getting this thing to fit over the existing dash shell...straight. ...and work will be very difficult.
Also you would need to start with a pre-textured ABS or vinyl sheet. As that sheet is stretched around the sharp edges of the deep draw area of the dash......the texture will distort and actually disappear in the sharp edge areas of the dash.
The original factory dash was not made by vacuum forming. It was a molded part that was then back filled with foam in either the same mold or a second mold with the metal form molded into the back on a jig.
The method I am going to use to restore my dash......and from experiments I have done....I know it will work.....is to sand all of the existing texture off evenly to also thin the surface of the dash. Then use non-shrinking, 25 year paintable acrylic architectural caulk to fill and level all the cracks.
Then I will paint the whole dash with faceplates and hardware off.... with a thinned layer of flexible undercoating or bedliner and then add the texture and then paint another layer of flexible undercoat to fill between the texture.....then finish with a plasticote or Dupli-color plastic/rubber paint that is satin black.
It will look factory quality.....but not the 100% exact texture of the original factory. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:59 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Interesting----I tried to follow your steps the best I could with my meager knowledge. Wish I lived close to you-----would love to watch you do these things, and learn. In doing this procedure I'm guessing you are leaving the raised portions of the dash untouched. The ash tray, speaker, and handle on the right. Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:11 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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titan3c wrote: |
Interesting----I tried to follow your steps the best I could with my meager knowledge. Wish I lived close to you-----would love to watch you do these things, and learn. In doing this procedure I'm guessing you are leaving the raised portions of the dash untouched. The ash tray, speaker, and handle on the right. Bob |
Actually nothing is untouched. Just so you know.....the speaker grill comes off with 4 speed nuts from underneath, the ashtray pops out.....but yes.....the very edges of the openings for these two parts will be masked wo they dont grow any.
The trick and the testing for this process will be thinning the undercoat/bed liner just slightly before spraying it on.
The first layer is to be very thin.....its going to essentially used as a slow drying adhesive to hold the texture on.
The second layer is to bind that together and fill in between the texture grains.
Dont worry I will make a pictorial of how ro do this. Ray |
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gadds21 Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
titan3c wrote: |
This sounds great. I haven't searched much for 3D printing in the USA, but I wonder if it's available.
There is one part I would love to duplicate, and haven't accomplished it yet with any success. It's the pressed cardboard or composite trim on the inside just under the rear window on a 411 sedan. It's about 6 to 8 inches wide with the oval openings next to the window to circulate air to the outside, and runs the full length of the window. Mine as others has deteriorated due to heat from the sun.
Would it be possible to 3D print one of these-------if someone has a good one? Bob |
Kharon8.....actually Polylactone.....with heat added inside of say....the engine compartment. ...start breakijg it down almost immediately.
BUT..... dont let that stop you! There are many plastics available fot 3D printers and a wide range of differences and potential design pros and cons. The Polylactone material is being used BECAUSE its a public library.
The material in a public place needs to be non-toxic and biodegradable. Its actually a fairly accurate material dimensionally and works well for making prototypes for other types of molding.
TITAN3C. ....there are 3D printing businesses virtually all around you these days. Some are serious and have many resins and can be quite expensive but can make nearly industrial grade parts depending on the material used and the design.
Titan3c. .....funny you should mention the rear valance part. I should have them available sometime this year.
About 6 years ago.....a member either here or on the STF....was getting rid of his car or parting out.....and sent me an exceent condition one to make a mold from. Its been an off and on project.....mainly exploring what material would be useful and economical to mold such a big part with.
After some testing I have narrowed it down a bit. With the temperatures this area sees in the summer......over 120° common.....and moisture in the winter.....virtually all of the castable plastics are out. They will deform in no time.
Actually cardboard is not a bad material......a ground paper pulp mixed with a resin.....but the resin would have to be water based acrylic to be long term stable and short term affordable.
One of the best materials I have tested.....is granulated cork. The problem I have found with paperboard and granulated cork.....is the same issue that the original suffers from.....and that is if something heavy is put in the back area.....you can easily crush or crack this valance.
The mold itself...will be basically a crate with baffels. I can make it of poly coated plaster if I am going to mold a liquid/paste......or......and this brings me to a method I am leaning toward.......I can make the mold of fine portland cement.
With this last mold type.....I would probably make the part....from 2-3 thin sheets (.012" thick) aluminum with a sprayed layer of rubberized undercoating between each layer.
This brings material cost to under $40 for each part.
The first layer of 3003 alloy formable sheet is taped down and then forced into the fine mold features/recesses using a leather shot bag on the end of a needle scaler on low pressure. Spray on the undercoated....let it tack up about 85% apply the second sheet, tack up slightly, apply the third sheet and then lower the inner form into it to press it evenly.
What you will get is a smooth aluminum, fairly rigid part with some elastic flexibility. It will be about 98% the same dimensionally as the original or better. You can then paint it with plasticote matte black texture spray and it should do well.
Then cut out the oval vent holes with a dremel before painting.
As soon as I get my front end back on the ground in the next month or so, and the transmission rebuild done....I could probably get this one started in early summer. Ray |
Quote: |
Hi Ray, have you fabricated these replacement trim panels for under the rear window? I would be interested in buying 2 if you have them. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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The way things are going right now it will probably be late september. But I will be making them. Ray |
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gadds21 Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
The way things are going right now it will probably be late september. But I will be making them. Ray |
Ok, just let me know when you have them, thanks |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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Ray, I don't mean to bug you, but just wondering if you've found time yet to pursue this rear window trim process yet? Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: Re: ~free 3d-printing in local library |
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titan3c wrote: |
Ray, I don't mean to bug you, but just wondering if you've found time yet to pursue this rear window trim process yet? Bob |
Still in the works. I did a little bit on it two weeks ago. The original piece needed some work...glue patching. I hope to get time to do the outer mold by early March.
Ray |
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