Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue
Forum Index -> Water-cooled VW Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:42 am    Post subject: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

I have a 1994 Jetta with the 2.0 and automatic, and I have been chasing this issue for the past year, and it is busting my diagnostic chops. I have several VW vans and vanagons, and am somewhat use to working on them, etc. But this one is a puzzle. The car is OBD 1 and has very low mileage for it's age, 88000. I bought it 2 years ago from a guy who advertises a lot on here.The car is in very good physical shape, and had numerious problems which i have been working through one by one. This is what it does. The car starts, runs, idles and drives perfect, until it has run for about 5 miles. Then, it kind of feels as if it isn't running quite as smooth, almost a miss,but not quite. If this persists for a few minutes, sometimes, like once every 5 times it does it, the check engine light comes on, and the car then seems to run a little rougher. Accerrerating reasonably turns out the light, and as long as the car is accellerating, it runs great. Then, upon resuming crusing speed (it always seems to do this at 55-60 mph), it will run the rest of the trip without the check engine light on, but it still feels to me as if it is almost missfiring.
When I pull the codes, I always get codes 2113 and 2111. If I go to erase the codes, I will get a random selection of the 4411,4412,4413,4414 codes. Sometimes all of them sometimes one or two of them. I also get 1321, 1322, 3434(which if I read my Bently correctly, is a VR6 code only(?)), and again a smattering of 4311, 4412, 4413, 4414 codes, and 4312(egr solenoid), and a 1321(not 1231, as I already got that).
When I bought the car, one of the things wrong was that the check engine bulb was removed, so someone else may have given up on it also, andthat may explain the low mileage. I have: replaced the timing belt and tensioner, verified multiple times that the valve timing is correct(even using a dial indicator to measure for TDC), checked all the wiring including Ohming out all the wires and injectors, replaces all the consumables (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, filters, fuel and air and oil and filter. I have replaced the cam position sensor(distributor), and I have a crank position sensor ready to go in it. All electronic components test correctly according to the Bently, and a wiggle test of all i can wiggle yields no change. I replaced the engine temp sensor, and tried another ECM, that I cleared of all codes, ran and it too yielded the same error codes as the original ECM. I tried another tps, but I could not find a new one( mine has 2 connectors, top and bottom, and all the ones I bought have only one. I did try a used tps and the car would not even start with that tps. The Bently says that the ecm, tps and something else have to be sequenced with the VAG 1551 to operate correctly, so that may be why.
Anyway, fortunatly, we have other vehicles to drive. My wife is almost ready to give up on this car, and soon I will have to purchase her a different car if I cannot fix this one. She is looking at Subarus!
Any Ideas? Thanks, Tbob.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
ps2375
Samba Member


Joined: April 24, 2014
Posts: 2471
Location: Meridian,ID
ps2375 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

What are those codes for, I can't even find their meanings. I would find some one with a VAG-Com and have them scan it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Thanks for your response. The codes are OBD 1, which ended in 1995. The Bentely has an incomplete list, but 2113 is a cam sensor code, 2111 is a crank sensor code, 4411-4414 are injector codes, 1321-1324 are not listed in the Bentley, but Ibelieve that I read somewhere that they are missfire codes. The last digit in each of the codes corrosponds to the cylinder identified. Sometimes the codes identify certian cylinders as missfiring and other times other cylinders are identified, which is why I do not suspect the injectors. I suspected the cam position sensor as it(the cam sensor is the pickup in the distributor) controls all the firing of the injectors, but I replaced it with no change.
I would love to find some shop with a VAG 1551, but I live in the sticks, and the nearest european speciality shop is 40 miles away. There also isn't a body of VW enthuasiasts here, as most everyone thinks the sun rises and falls on Chevrolets. I may still take it for a scan, but was hoping someone might have some thoughts about this dilema. Thanks again. Tbob
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
73sports
Samba Member


Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 2107
Location: Warrington, PA
73sports is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Is that ground connection on the block near the alternator good? I know that's where the engine harness grounds the sensors, and if there is a poor connection there, chaos will insue. You've swapped the ecu, sounds like most of the sensors, and the problem persists. To me it's a ground or harness issue. Unfortunately OBD 1 won't give you data about when the faults are set, that's what you need to be sure of wiring problems.
_________________
I will never lie, but sometimes the truth changes.

Central Jersey VW Society
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Twitter Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli


Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12815
Location: North Carolina
TDCTDI is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Be sure to check the ground strap between the coil & the cylinder head, especially the connection between the strap bracket and the nut holding it to the valve cover.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Thanks, Guys, for the responses. 73 sports, I forgot to list that I have cleaned the grounds on the buss on the block more than once. TDITDC, I did forget the ground on the coil to head. I don't know how, because I am trying to be as thorough as possible. The punishment for failure may be a Subaru! Thanks! Tbob
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli


Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12815
Location: North Carolina
TDCTDI is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Another possibility is the coil, start the car & squirt the coil two to three times with some windex or other non flammable liquid in a spray bottle, it the car starts to misfire (this may take a minute or two to react & may shut the car off completely), replace the coil.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli


Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12815
Location: North Carolina
TDCTDI is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Also, as I remember, all of those codes are caused by consumers that are on the same circuit. Check the fuse for corrosion & if you still have intermittent issues, disconnect the oxygen sensor. These can short internally & cause weirdness.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead


Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16801
Location: sticksville, ct.
skills@eurocarsplus is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

those old girls are a pain in the ass. if the timing belt has been done, double check the marks. if they are ok, I watch the values (forget the MBV) and you may need to tweek the distributor a hair
_________________
gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Hi, all, sorry for being out of the loop for awhile. However, I have some updates. TDCTDI, I did try the spray bottle on various components/ electrical connections, no decrease in RPM or increase in missfires. I also changed the O2 sensor, no improvement. However, the missfire condition that turned the check engine light on seemed to happen quicker. It use to be that I would have to drive at 50-60 mph to turn the light on, after the engine seemed to possibly missfire for a couple of seconds. Now, it was turning on right out of the driveway.
Here is another thing that may or may not make sense. When I just "check" the diagnostic codes (ignition on, insert the data link connector for 2 1/2 seconds) I only get 2 codes, 2111 and 2113. When I go to erase the codes ( ignition off, data link connector inserted, then turn ignition on) I get the whole littany of codes chronicled in my first post.
20 years ago, I took some auto electronics and fuel injection classes at the local community college. IIRC, some cars (GM?) had different codes in the ECM memory vs "instant". I didn't think to question this with the VW, but I can find nothing to indicate this is the case. Should they be the same on this VW?
So I kept coming back to that code 2111 and 2113. 2111 is the code that states that the engine isn't running. This is normal, as when you check the code, the ignition is on, but the engine isn't running. But the code 2113, cam position sensor out of range, just didn't add up. I had checked the cam timing even to the point of of measuring the TDC with a dial indicator, I had replaced the cam position sensor. But how could the ECM know that the cam position sensor is off? The only way I can figure out is it compares the signal from the cam position with the signal from the crank position sensor. The Bentley manual only says that if the crank position sensor is bad, the engine won't start. My engine starts. That would indicate that my crank position sensor is ok.
So, I replaced the crank position sensor. It's a hassle, as it is buried behind the front motor mount bracket.
I have now driven 75 miles without a check engine light. That is a record for this car. I still am not ready to say it is cured, but it has not seemed to missfire and it has not turned on the check engine light in 3 days.
I will keep you guys posted. Oh, Skills, I have enjoyed your writeups in the Bay bus forum! Thanks to all who responded! Tbob
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
ps2375
Samba Member


Joined: April 24, 2014
Posts: 2471
Location: Meridian,ID
ps2375 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Good to see you made progress, sometimes the codes can be deceiving. And not having a VAG code reader can sometimes make it harder. And yes, it'll throw out the cam position code every time when scanned with motor not running, that is still early days of OBD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Just another update. I have now driven 275 miles without a check engine light. Once again, a new record for this car. It feels like it might be running slightly lean at 55-65 mph, as it feels to me as if it isn't yet perfect. Yet, it runs smooth, accelerates well, and it may just be my imagination that it seems to be running slightly lean. There is no perceptible missing or shuddering or anything like before, so I could be ultra sensitive. I have run one tank of gas through it, and it returned 24 mph, about what I would expect. My wife is talking about driving it again so maybe I have avoided replacing it with Subaru. Thanks again for all the feedback, Tom
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

And,yet, another update. We drove this car another 750 miles without a check engine light. A new record for this car. Then, 2 weeks ago, coming up to a stop, the check engine light came on. Accelerating away from the stop sign made it go out, and it stayed off for the rest of the trip. The next day, it came on twice while my wife was driving it. we took it on a 300 mile trip, tempting fate and German electronics, and it performed fine. 2 nights ago, my wife was driving home from work, and she said that the check engine light came on, and that the engine revved up too much. She couldn't define it more than that, but a test drive the next day revealed that the transmission will not shift out of 2nd gear when the engine warms up. All the documentation that I have on this transmission says that the limp home mode is 3rd gear, but this is definatly 2nd. I have already replaced the solenoids and the internal wiring foil months ago. My suspicion is that the temp sensing bulb on the new wiring foil failed.
I parked the car back in the drive, and started pondering. Although I have been a VW owner and enthuasiast for 40+ years, this car has both tested my mechanical chops and, possibly more importantly, made me re examine my enthusiasm for the Volkswagen Brand as an automotive conveyance. As I ponder, I can think of no compelling reason to attempt to repair and attempt to use this car as a car. If it was a special vehicle to me, such as my old vans are/were, it might be worth the price of hassle to keep fiddeling with it. But not is it only not special to me,it is most likely the most mediocre vehicle I have ever owned. Awful seats, flaccid suspension, poor quality trim, lousey fit and finish, poor performance from the HVAC system( it's both non integrated and we cannot find the settings that really can keep the inside defrosted on a muggy day), and most likely the most significant, the 2.0 engine is coarse, underpowered, and is mated to a transmission that forces it to spin at 3000 rpm plus at crusing speeds. Foolish alarm system, my head hits the roof as the sunroof takes up headroom (I am only 5' 10"), there is no position for the sunroof to be open that seems wothh having it, clumsy rear seat fold down proceedure, etc, etc. I also have a totally clapped out 1993 Audi 90, and in every way, even with twice the mileage(180,000) it is a more comfortable, more composed car. I know that it was considerably more upscale than the Jetta in its day, but still, the difference is stunning.
So, I know this is sounding like sour grapes, but this car has taught me a very important lesson. Where VW's were once a different breed and had attributes that made them worth the hassle, my experience with this car showed me just how far VW had fallen in the 1990's. Other car companies stepped up their game through the 80's and 90's and beyond, and Vw's were just one of the many, instead of the special.
So, since my vehicular game plan is to buy and use older, depreciated vehicles as my transportation. There is no compelling, or maybe any, reason to pursue another Volkswagen. There are too many other good choices out there in my purchase price range. And the ownership of a Volkswagen takes a committment that I am no longer willing to commit to for our normal, day to day transportation needs. I have other hobby cars, now I need a real car for her to drive.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
flemcadiddlehopper
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2011
Posts: 2332
Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
flemcadiddlehopper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

I have read through this thread and found it very interesting. Although I can't comment on the codes that have been thrown by your car, as VAG codes are foreign to me, generic codes would be easier to understand for me.
I understand your frustration as I have to deal with them on a daily basis at work. Many times it is hard to see the trees through the forest, and you just need to step back and try and figure the how the logic should flow. What does it need, what is missing and what's not quite right.
Air and exhaust metering balances the fuel metering. MAFs have always been a problem, they just read off enough to mess things up. They also effect your trans shifting.
If you have a decent scanner, try using the Mode 6. You can look at what the sensors range has been and what parameters it should work within, which lets you see how centred the readings are. It can help point you in the right direction of what could be happening.

But, I also understand the love loss for such a car. The older cars really do have more character to them, as well as less to go wrong.

Good luck on whatever decision you make.

Gordo.
_________________
Everybody Dies....Some Never Live.

Retrograde Garage. Vintage Aircooled, and others.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Hi, all. Just a short update. After trying everyone's suggestions, and everything in my and other's arsenal, I committed the unpardonable sin for a committed car guy: I took the car to the only Foreign car garage in these parts, about 40 miles away. They work on mostly newer Mercedes, Audi's and Bmw's, but they took my Jetta in. I have bought parts from them in the past, and the owners still work in the shop. I carefully wrote up what my complaint was, and a list of what I had tried to accomplish, and left the service writer with the understanding that I wanted to have the car fixed, and would spend what it would take to fix it, or at least get a good diagnosis.
A week later, I got the car back. The work order restated my concern with the car, and stated that they scanned the car and only got a cam position sensor code, and they cleaned the connector on the distributor(which was both new and carefully cleaned by me multiple times) and said that they couldn't get it to duplicate the issue after that. After picking the car up, the problem repeated itself within 5 miles. Returning wasn't an option that day, so I brought the car home, parked it in the back of my house where I didn't have to look at it. This was in November of 2016.
My wife had lost all faith in the car and wouldn't drive it. I bought her a Ford, which drives unusually well for an American car. I so far have had to accept no compromises,nor had to explain to myself that "they all do that" or, "that's just what you have to accept when you own a German car". And when I needed a part for the car, the auto parts store had it in stock.
I gave the Jetta away today. For free, and I am not sure that the new owner got anything worth having. At least they didn't pay too much.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
Tbob
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 417
Location: Pensacola, Fl.
Tbob is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

And yet another update on the Jetta. 3 weeks ago, the people that I gave the car to called me and asked me to take the car back. They drove it 2000 miles in 6 months. Although it performed well on short(3-5 miles or less) on the one time they needed to drive it longer, it did what it does(see above) and they parked it. Now that they were out of their financial bind, they bought another car. Wouldn't even consider a Volkswagen. Bought a Dodge. I parked it at the end of my property, down by my lake. Couldn't bring myself to leave it in neutral, and give it a little shove into the lake. Ecology, and all that. But I was tempted.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli


Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12815
Location: North Carolina
TDCTDI is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

The "cam position" sensor on your car is the distributor, as Skills stated, if the timing belt was replaced, it's quite possible that the distributor was not set correctly & while the computer will compensate so that the car will run, it will throw a cam position fault code.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ps2375
Samba Member


Joined: April 24, 2014
Posts: 2471
Location: Meridian,ID
ps2375 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1994 Jetta 2.0 Intermittant drivability issue Reply with quote

Does the car run any differently when the "check engine" light comes on? If not, pull the bulb or add tape to dash. All the cam position sensor does is add the TDC signal for #1 cylinder to enable sequential injection, otherwise it falls back to batch injection and will run just fine that way.
When the Timing belt was replaced, was the condition of the key on the crank sprocket checked? A good indication of it's condition is the presence of a lot of powdered rust behind the sprocket, they tend to slowly get pounded into nothing as it is cast into the sprocket during manufacturing (the sprocket appears to be cast from powdered metal).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Water-cooled VW All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.