Starter replacement

[vamram]

[pepsiguy78]

[rockerarm]

Hi.
What I have done for installing the upper starter bolt's nut is to assure the threads on both bolt and nut are clean. Test the threads while they are in your hand. To install the nut I will use a long thin screwdriver, approx. 12-14" long to hold the bolt in place, with the screwdriver's tip holding the thread. This screwdriver would be positioned upright at the 12 o'clock position. I use my left hand over the top of the fan shroud to hold the screwdriver. My right hand is able to wrap around the right side of the fan shroud to start the threads. It takes a bit of practice to master this and one probably needs to be somewhat flexible. Many folks have many screwdrivers but no body putty, so this trick shouldn't cost anything.
Since most later type 1's have an electrical connector under the rear seat, left side, that is the terminal 50 wire to the starter, I have found it advantageous to carry a 12-18" long jumper wire and if a starter acts up, it is possible to jump this circuit from the battery post to this terminal. This trick probably wont jump a completely faulty starter but some starters will act up with voltage losses from the remaining wiring circuit.
A starter relay is a good choice to protect the new ignition switch from the solenoids current from traveling thru the ignition switch, whether it is a quality switch or a china low quality part. The relay can be mounted under the rear seat, left side, and be removed easily, if desired.
Hope this helps, Bill.

[pepsiguy78]

[ashman40]

Test the #50 circuit at the junction below the rear seat. Separate the two red wires and hook a volt meter to the wire coming from the left side (use alligator clips). This wire comes from the ignition switch and is powered when the key is turned to the START position. You should get a reading very close to battery voltage (12.6v?). Turn the key from OFF to START a few times and confirm the voltage is always the same.

If you get intermittent power or varying voltages between attempts you may have found your problem. You should expect 12v every time you turn it to START.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[rockerarm]

Hi. Sorry you are having an intermittent issue with a fine car. Diagnosing a concern along the road is no fun. If its any comfort I've been there too!
Do you have a DVOM? Good, get it out and in a controlled environment, meaning your home, attach the positive from the DVOM to the positive battery post and the negative from the DVOM to the #50 terminal on the starter. Switch the DVOM to DC Volts and while cranking the starter view the reading on the DVOM scale. The reading is your voltage loss along this entire positive circuit. You might want to test drive the car around and get it warm and recheck this test at your home a couple of times. Document the values.
Now, disconnect the DVOM. Connect the positive of the DVOM to the starter housing and the negative from the DVOM to the battery negative. Duplicate the above test a few times and document the values. This is a voltage drop test for the negative circuit for the starter.
Since you are now a pro with the DVOM, please verify the battery voltage to be at a near 12.5v which is fully charged. You can also verify charging voltage at somewhat around 14 to 14.5v, or so.
These tests will hopefully support the new parts installed, but we are all experiencing issues with the very same parts you mentioned.
As previously stated by Ashman, the connection under the rear seat, left side, is a good place to check for voltage. On my personal 74 std, I have a Bosch 30amp relay there to work with the approx. 1.75v drop to my starter. The connection here is a solid spot to jumper wire from the battery post to this connection when this concern happens. Some folks here cringe at the install of a starter relay to alleviate the very concern you are experiencing but fail to acknowledge new car manufacturers use relays, also. Your trans to chassis ground strap should be in top shape.
I would carry with you a jumper wire, at a minimum to jump the 50 circuit if you encounter the concen again. How was the interlock relay by-passed? A new/rebuilt starter may have black paint on it where it bolts to the trans housing, possibly interrupting the ground circuit. On my '71 bus, I have a basic starter relay installed and my battery ground cable is a 4ga cable that attaches to the lower starter stud.
I hope this helps, Bill. Let me know if you need any help with identifying the relays utilized, as they are very common/versatile. The voltage drop from the battery to the starter is a loooong circuit with many connections and I would suspect anything above 1.5-2.0v drop. The negative circuit is very basic/simple and would expect a 0.5v to be ok.

[pepsiguy78]

[Tim Donahoe]

Most people jumper end the seat-belt interlock by using a jumper at the fuse box.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[rockerarm]

Rick, You should be able to view the wiring for your car under the technical section here. I don't recall the wire colors, but the 50 circuit will exit the electrical section of the ign sw at the black plug at the steering column base. It then goes to the interlock relay, thru it then into the harness that goes to the back of the car. Since your fuse box is centrally located it is easily viewed by removing the plastic trim. The relay is a rather large rectangular relay, centrally located in the fuse box, as I recall. There are a few ways to by-pass the relay. If the car starts but doesn't when the relay is pulled then it hasn't been by-passed.
While you inspect the chassis ground, spend the additional time assuring the remaining ground stuff is cool, as I had written.
Bill.

[pepsiguy78]

[ashman40]

Run the tests I suggested above. This will tell you if there is a problem with current from the ignition switch reaching the #50 junction just before the starter.

The other thing you can do... next time it doesn't crank the engine...

Place the transmission in neutral
Set the parking brake
Lift the back seat and find the #50 junction
Disconnect the two wires
Touch the exposed end of the red #50 that leaves the rear of the pan to the + battery terminal. This should energize the starter solenoid and crank the engine. If your ignition is ON, the engine should start. If this doesn't crank the engine, your starter could be failing.

_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[pepsiguy78]

[Cusser]

Ashman has a lot of expertise in VW electrical stuff; not only is he more knowledgeable about this than I am, he is WAY MORE PATIENT. I typically am way better in helping someone with this stuff in person or on the phone than by typing it out, so consider Ashman a great benefit here to us all.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[rockerarm]

Ashman, I respect your posts but, your test is flawed!! A fully charged up battery, of approx. 12.5v, will drop voltage when the heaviest drawing item in the car, the starter, is engaged. To think that on a 12v system, with a fully charged up battery(12.5v), engage a 60-100amp item, and not drop the voltage is completely misleading to the original poster. The voltage drop test is the "gold standard" in automotive diagnostics! It is used on computer controlled circuits and our flintstone electrical circuits. I can only impress upon our members to "learn it, know it, use it" logic with this highly valuable tool. Car manufacturers teach this technology to line techs.
I just tested my DD '74 and it has a fully charged up battery of 12.7v. I had my DVOM at the #50 wire connection under the rear seat, and while cranking had 11.4v. This circuit works.
Hope this helps, Bill

[Cusser]

[rockerarm]

Roger that cusser, but I would be suspect of the battery if that was to occur, or extreme starter draw, at a minimum. The minimum voltage for any 12v item in the car to operate properly is 9.6v (4.8v on a 6v car). My previously mentioned voltage test was the voltage at the #50 terminal under the rear seat.

[ashman40]

[pepsiguy78]

[ashman40]

When you say "push start" I'm taking this to mean:

Point car in a safe direction where you have some running room
Turn ignition switch to ON
Put car in neutral and release parking brake
Push car until it is rolling
Jump in
Press in clutch and shift into 3rd gear
Momentarily pop the clutch and press it back down and the engine starts

(The above is much easier with a second person doing the pushing while you sit in the driver's seat, but can be done alone)

If this is what you are doing then it does not require the starter at all. The popping of the clutch while the transmission is engaged replaces the starter. You use the momentum of the car to turn the engine just as the starter would. You could actually remove the starter and push start it to get to the parts store to buy a new starter!

Maybe you mean something else by push start?

Infrequent trouble needs to be investigated with troubleshooting. You want to eliminate what it isn't and narrow down the possible causes. Only then should you consider replacing parts. Intermittent trouble is more difficult because you may need to wait until it is NOT working to run tests, or run the tests until they don't work.
Test the starter to make sure it crank every time you directly energize the solenoid #50 terminal.
Test the ignition switch/circuit and make sure the voltage reaching the starter solenoid is sufficient to energize the starter solenoid every time the key is turned to START.

When my ignition switch was starting to fail I could see this in the voltage readings at the disconnected #50 wire under the rear seat. The voltage would vary from 5v to 12v and occasionally it was 0v. You can go one step further and test the #50 wire as it comes out of the ignition switch. If you see the same pattern there you know it is the switch and not the wiring.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[sjbartnik]