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Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car?
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:15 am    Post subject: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever done it this way (always pulled the engine) but...

First start-up of rebuilt motor, and although the innards seem right, I've got a couple of minor problems to deal with. Stock 1600 w/1776 P&C, FI, plumbed for external filter.

First, it was machined by Brothers for an external filter. I've got some weeping at the fittings to the case, but I'm loathe to over tighten it. I fitted it dry... should I have used teflon tape? (the hoses are compression type and no tape, but the thread into the case may have needed the tape). Anyone know how tight, and if tape is recommended? Searching it seems like lactate is the better answer, preferred over tape. So off they will come and then I'll use lactate. Which is the right product?

I filled it w/ 30wt and zinc additive, primed it without fuel and spark about 30 seconds past pressure light out, then ran it at 2200 rpm for 20 minutes, and there are no obvious problems with the basic motor. Oil pressure with 30wt was 40 at 3500 rpm, and about 20 at idle when warm but not hot. Stock 26mm pump.

Okay, to the main topic...

More concerning is a sort of rattling/rubbing sound that is way louder when listening through the fender cooling slots, so I figure my fan is rubbing somewhere. I lack the centering tool, but I've always had good luck fitting it by eye. One gasket and one shim. No sign of rubbing when assembled, but the noise is there now and I want to fix it.

With all the crap hung on a FI motor, I'd prefer to pull the muffler, then the sheet metal shroud and the aft cast half shroud, with the engine in the car. That way I can also run it for a few moments to help localize the noise. Can't do that on the engine stand.

Interesting that with all my endplay before the rebuild, I had no noise. Now with a new case, I have it. The shimming may need to be changed but I was not expecting this, with no apparent rubbing during assembly.

I have a socket for the fan bolt, and can put it in gear to lock it from rotation for loosening and tightening. But from memory, I can't remember how hard/easy it is to get at the rest of the job.

Anyone done it recently with good advice?


Last edited by KTPhil on Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brent
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I've got some weeping at the fittings to the case, but I'm loathe to over tighten it. I fitted it dry... should I have used teflon tape? (the hoses are compression type and no tape, but the thread into the case may have needed the tape). Anyone know how tight, and if tape is recommended? Searching it seems like lactate is the better answer, preferred over tape. So off they will come and then I'll use lactate. Which is the right product?


Save the teflon tape for your faucets. Unfortunately, breast milk doesn't work well either. Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'd look at one of the thread sealant offerings from Permatex or LOCTITE. I used the white general purpose PTFE variant on my full flow fittings to the case without any issues.

-----

I pulled the fan shroud and some tins with the motor in the car to fix a leaking oil pump cover. Kind of pain really, but I had it all back together the same day and it probably took less time in the end considering I didn't have to disconnect the heaters and all the wiring.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Brent wrote:

Save the teflon tape for your faucets. Unfortunately, breast milk doesn't work well either. Laughing Laughing Laughing


lol, gotta love Safari autocorrect!

Thanks for the tip. I think I'll try it with the engine in, PITA to work in tight spaces, but I want to know I've fixed the rubbing (or whatever it is) without multiple R&Rs.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Brent wrote:

Save the teflon tape for your faucets. Unfortunately, breast milk doesn't work well either. Laughing Laughing Laughing


lol, gotta love Safari autocorrect!

Thanks for the tip. I think I'll try it with the engine in, PITA to work in tight spaces, but I want to know I've fixed the rubbing (or whatever it is) without multiple R&Rs.


The biggest pain with removing the rear shroud was dealing with the flaps linkage. IIRC, you have to take the e-clip off the end to get it out. Tight space and a little tiny clip takes some patience.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

I swapped both of my fan pulleys with the engine in the car; but, I don't have the cooling flaps. From what I remember everything came off without issued. Youll have to bolt the outside pulley back on if your going to see whats hitting, if anything.

I used red thread locker on my oil line to case fitting and I have no leaks there. I remember putting it about 1 turn past tight.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

I have full flaps & thermostat, but I expect I won't have to remove the front shroud half where the gizmos reside. At worst, I might have to loosen it to reposition it, but I think I can leave the flaps and rod in place, if memory serves.

Worst case is that the (new universal) case machining wasn't quite right, and it's warping the cast housing enough to make it rub. Anyone had to shim those screws?

I've never had Type 3 fan rubbing issues, so I'm open to any experiences y'all have had.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
First, it was machined by Brothers for an external filter. I've got some weeping at the fittings to the case, but I'm loathe to over tighten it. I fitted it dry... should I have used teflon tape? (the hoses are compression type and no tape, but the thread into the case may have needed the tape). Anyone know how tight, and if tape is recommended? Searching it seems like lactate is the better answer, preferred over tape. So off they will come and then I'll use lactate. Which is the right product?


I was advised to use this stuff....Permatex "High Performance" Thread Sealant

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-56521-Performance-Thread-Sealant/dp/B000HBM72Q

I used it on all threaded oil fittings and there's not a single sign of dripping or leaking. I'd try to get a smaller tube though. The one I got is probably 20 motors worth of sealant.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

I was advised to use this stuff....Permatex "High Performance" Thread Sealant

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-56521-Performance-Thread-Sealant/dp/B000HBM72Q

I used it on all threaded oil fittings and there's not a single sign of dripping or leaking. I'd try to get a smaller tube though. The one I got is probably 20 motors worth of sealant.


Thanks, I like easy Amazon Prime solutions!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:

Stock 26mm pump.

Okay, to the main topic...

More concerning is a sort of rattling/rubbing sound that is way louder when listening through the fender cooling slots, so I figure my fan is rubbing somewhere.


Hate to tell you this, but the stock pump is 21mm. That extra 5mm of pump, and it's longer studs are pushing the bottom of the inner shroud into the large cooling fan. BTDT had to pull the fan and shroud (inner and outer) to trim the studs.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Okay, I thought 26mm was standard on a '71.

The rebuilder put the pump on, and I put on the shroud. I don't remember any interference issues when installing it. He wanted to use a 30mm but that interfered as you describe, so he went 26mm, which I thought was stock (from memory, which is always suspect these days...).

Build sheet says "26mm Shadek/ full flow" but it is not a Bug-type with a cover fitting; I used the Brother's Machining method of adding the filter (off the main oil galley) so it's a flat cover.

I'll check, and keep the ideas coming!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
KTPhil wrote:

Stock 26mm pump.

Okay, to the main topic...

More concerning is a sort of rattling/rubbing sound that is way louder when listening through the fender cooling slots, so I figure my fan is rubbing somewhere.


Hate to tell you this, but the stock pump is 21mm. That extra 5mm of pump, and it's longer studs are pushing the bottom of the inner shroud into the large cooling fan. BTDT had to pull the fan and shroud (inner and outer) to trim the studs.


Another Amazon Prime solution (they are rare, but fun) for this would be some Prussian Blue...a kind of machinists dye

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80038-Prussian-Blue...ssian+blue

We used it when having to clearance the back of the fan housing to fit with the Berg full flow pump and fittings. It takes guess work out of things. You could just apply it to the stud and it'll imprint on the housing where it interferes. When you don't get any more blue stuff on the housing, you know you've clearance enough of the stud or the housing.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Brent wrote:


I pulled the fan shroud and some tins with the motor in the car to fix a leaking oil pump cover. Kind of pain really, but I had it all back together the same day and it probably took less time in the end considering I didn't have to disconnect the heaters and all the wiring.


I was wondering how easy it would be. I am pretty sure I have a leaky oil pump too (unless it is coming from the case above). And all my fittings have tape on them (I assume plumber tape). And they are weeping too. Really sucks because it drips down and onto the exhaust when driving. Makes for a stinky car.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

I took some photos of the full flow work, and have some from others and will make up a FAQ for this in the near future. There are a couple of ways to do this on a Type 3/IRS motor and several ways from bugs that DON'T work.

Okay, I believe this is a stock 26mm pump. Some say that's an oxymoron, and that a 21mm pump was stock. Others say they went to 26 with the dual relief cases in '71. Can anyone tell from the photos? It's somewhat academic since I have a new universal case. Here is what's there now:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now, I can clearly see the two lower studs/nuts on the pump cover. One shows clearance:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The other is hitting the shroud. No telling how much it is distorting it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Maybe it just kissed it. Maybe it's bent the shroud and this is the source of my rubbing. I can get at it with a hacksaw blade or sawzall without removing anything. If the stars align then this will let it bend back into proper position and my rubbing is over. Since I don't live that righteously, I'll probably end up taking it all off including the rear engine carrier and grinding them down. I won't get to it for another week, so I'm saving up my karma points this week!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:

The other is hitting the shroud. No telling how much it is distorting it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Maybe it just kissed it. Maybe it's bent the shroud and this is the source of my rubbing. I can get at it with a hacksaw blade or sawzall without removing anything. If the stars align then this will let it bend back into proper position and my rubbing is over. Since I don't live that righteously, I'll probably end up taking it all off including the rear engine carrier and grinding them down. I won't get to it for another week, so I'm saving up my karma points this week!


Yup, that's it. It doesn't have to hit much, because the mounting bolts for the shroud are from the center and above. It's probably hitting just enough to piss you off though, and a little here can be almost a 1/16th of an inch inside the shroud. You'll probably find that the fan has machined about a 3 to 4 inch section inside the shroud.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Success! And I didn't have to remove anything. That one pictured interfering stud was the sole culprit. I notched it by hand with a hacksaw blade, then sheared off about 1/8" length with a sawzall and fine blade. As soon as I made it through the stud, it went "snap" and moved about the same 1/8", and now has clearance. Started it up and no rubbing.

The one stud had hit because the shroud air path at the bottom has a taper and although one side (right) cleared, the other (left) needs to be trimmed slightly. The top two aren't an issue; they are safely behind the engine carrier.

Adjusted the valves and sealed the full-flow fittings with Permatex thread sealant, and no leaks, at least so far. A few more runs and then I'll change the oil/filter next weekend.

Now I'll have to tune the FI, since I've messed with both engine displacement (now 1776) and injectors (larger Mercedes units), and I may now have a funky TVS, but in a week or so I'll hook up the A/F meter and find my spare TVS, and have a go at measurements. If needed, I can take apart a spare MPS and then start the adjusting cycles. Right now it misses a bit and is not always happy at lower rpms; hopefully I'll be able to tune these issues out and get a good balance of power and economy out of it.

It's a long process with more to go as above, but this is a real step forward, without having to remove: muffler, heat exchangers, tin shroud, rear cast shroud, maybe even intake runners and tin, fan(s), forward shroud half, engine carrier... all just to get to the top oil pump studs! Thanks god I didn't have to do all that!

My advice based on my dodging a bullet is to check three times that you don't have any interference with the oil pump studs at every step! I just checked once when assembling and obviously missed one. Save yourself grief!


Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Whew! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Good for you! We wound up having to drop our new motor twice just to change full flow fittings (long story). I'm glad you didn't have too much drama getting this done!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Success! And I didn't have to remove anything. That one pictured interfering stud was the sole culprit. I notched it by hand with a hacksaw blade, then sheared off about 1/8" length with a sawzall and fine blade. As soon as I made it through the stud, it went "snap" and moved about the same 1/8", and now has clearance. Started it up and no rubbing.


Congratulations. Glad to hear you got it fixed. Applause

As for the FI tuning, I'll sit here and watch the out come while having a beer and eating Popcorn .
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

I've pulled heads in car on a notchback, so fanshroud should be easy. Didn't turn it over before instal?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Fan rubbing / Pulling fan shroud with motor in car? Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
I've pulled heads in car on a notchback, so fanshroud should be easy. Didn't turn it over before instal?


Yup; by hand, though, and not a sound!
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