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potterjon
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:56 pm    Post subject: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

So our 71 squareback won't start. It will crank but not start.
I have spark at all the plugs. I bought a spark plug test light to make it easier on myself. I have replaced the fuel filter and still don't see fuel coming out of the line going to the fuel injectors. I bought a digital multi meter today and had tried to check for power going to the fuel pump but that confused me a little because it has to be on jackstands to check it and I am assuming the car has to be in neutral while someone tries to crank it up and I look for voltage. But I am working alone for the most part. It is the older style pump with three outlets. How can I check the pump or the power supply to the pump? I know it kicks on for a second when you put the key in accessory position, but after that I assume it shuts off when until you try and turn the engine over.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Fuel pressure gauge.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Do you hear the pump running at all?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

I hear the click but don't hear the pump running. But come to think of it, I don't think I ever really heard the pump running before. I am aware I can take it off and check it by running it in diesel fuel and all, or I can have it rebuilt or we could replace it with the ford ranger one that I read about in the other threads, but is there a way to test it and/or the electrical connections before I assume it is bad? How would a fuel pressure gauge help if there is no fuel coming through the lines to the injectors?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Using a battery charger and a couple of small jumper leads, hook up the leads to the pump, and to the battery charger and then listen for the pump running. Doing it this way, you're testing only the pump to see if it works electrically. With a helper, you could test the car side to see if power is getting to the pump using a VOM (Volt Ohm Meter).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Using a battery charger and a couple of small jumper leads, hook up the leads to the pump, and to the battery charger and then listen for the pump running. Doing it this way, you're testing only the pump to see if it works electrically. With a helper, you could test the car side to see if power is getting to the pump using a VOM (Volt Ohm Meter).


And bear in mind: if you're using a newer battery charger, many of them have to "see" a battery load before they'll start putting out voltage. If you just hook it straight to the fuel pump it won't make it run.

I would start by checking the voltage at the pump, while someone cycles the key on and off several times. If you've got voltage but the pump isn't running, it's toast.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

So when voltage is checked at the pump with a helper I should only see the voltage for 1.5 seconds as the pump primes the injectors? Is that correct? I may be able to get a helper today. I do have a battery charger that I can use if needed and it's a loaner. I do not think it is new.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

That's correct.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

potterjon wrote:
So when voltage is checked at the pump with a helper I should only see the voltage for 1.5 seconds as the pump primes the injectors? Is that correct? I may be able to get a helper today. I do have a battery charger that I can use if needed and it's a loaner. I do not think it is new.


Yeah, or you could ground the #19 wire in the engine compartment. This should cause the pump to run when the key is on.
Here's a link to it.
http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/just_stuff/dscf0092.jpg.html
Note; it's in an AT car, but that wire should still be there in an MT car.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
potterjon wrote:
So when voltage is checked at the pump with a helper I should only see the voltage for 1.5 seconds as the pump primes the injectors? Is that correct? I may be able to get a helper today. I do have a battery charger that I can use if needed and it's a loaner. I do not think it is new.


Yeah, or you could ground the #19 wire in the engine compartment. This should cause the pump to run when the key is on.
Here's a link to it.
http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/just_stuff/dscf0092.jpg.html
Note; it's in an AT car, but that wire should still be there in an MT car.


Yeah, easy to insert an alligator clip into the T1 connector, then turn on the ignition.

I just did this to maker a first adjustment on my rebuilt engine after having to replace the pressure regulator. I guess drying out for a few months ruined it. Fortunately I had a spare.

I grounded #19 as above and adjusted the pressure with the engine not running. So here's the question... will it be appreciably different with the engine running and the tiny amounts of fuel bleeding through the firing injectors? I always imagined that the fuel ring was way over-sized for flow and constantly dumped through the return line, and so the injection wouldn't have an effect. However, I read somewhere here that later Type 4s(?) may have used a different regulator that reacted to intake vacuum (load) to tweak it under full load. If true, that makes me think I should leave the gauge on and make a final pressure adjustment with the engine revved up. Anyone got better intel on this?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
potterjon wrote:
So when voltage is checked at the pump with a helper I should only see the voltage for 1.5 seconds as the pump primes the injectors? Is that correct? I may be able to get a helper today. I do have a battery charger that I can use if needed and it's a loaner. I do not think it is new.


Yeah, or you could ground the #19 wire in the engine compartment. This should cause the pump to run when the key is on.
Here's a link to it.
http://classicvw.org/gallery2/v/just_stuff/dscf0092.jpg.html
Note; it's in an AT car, but that wire should still be there in an MT car.


Yeah, easy to insert an alligator clip into the T1 connector, then turn on the ignition.

I just did this to maker a first adjustment on my rebuilt engine after having to replace the pressure regulator. I guess drying out for a few months ruined it. Fortunately I had a spare.

I grounded #19 as above and adjusted the pressure with the engine not running. So here's the question... will it be appreciably different with the engine running and the tiny amounts of fuel bleeding through the firing injectors? I always imagined that the fuel ring was way over-sized for flow and constantly dumped through the return line, and so the injection wouldn't have an effect. However, I read somewhere here that later Type 4s(?) may have used a different regulator that reacted to intake vacuum (load) to tweak it under full load. If true, that makes me think I should leave the gauge on and make a final pressure adjustment with the engine revved up. Anyone got better intel on this?



Yes....lots of intel. The type 4 with D-jet used the exact same part # pressure regulator as the type 3.

The vacuum indexed model is non adjustable and only used by L-jet and other later systems.

The differences that allow variable versus fixed pressure are hard wired/programmed into the fuel curve. The L-jet unit will not work on D-jet. It results in a variable fuel mixture and its non ecu controlled changes to fuel pressure. .....would work asymmetrically to inputs from the MPS.

Experiments I did many years ago......showed that if the vacuum signature of the FPR could be slaved exactly to the same point/connection as MPS......some benefits could happen....but they are not consistent and will run poorly at all but a narrow rpm band.

On the flipside.....and you can buy these.....D-jet regulators with a vacuum nipple added to give some vacuum load index change to the diaphram.....makes anout 3-5 psi variation maximum......is beneficial for some L-jet and digifant and after market programmable systems. It allows for instance.....having some tweak-ability to L-jet baseline pressure by actually being able to adjust the baseline idle fuel pressure.

Understand a basic fact about D-jet......its designed to have a fixed fuel pressure. The system works around that pressure. It ASSUMES that fuel pressure is normal and unchanging.

As far as the ring main being large enough in volume to absorb variation and pulses from the injectors.....actually no.

Get a REAL gauge....and see the variation. The pump is large enough and high enough volume to quickly refill the volume lost as you romp on the gas and rapidly increase rpm.....but.....for roughly 0.5 to 0.75 seconds there is a dip and a lag before the fuel replenishment catches up.

If you are running at 2000 rpm accelerating to 3500.......understand how many injections are happening in 1 second.....and how many milliseconds of.....less than correct pressure.....you are feeding your cylinders.

Pressure X time= volume. Every 1 psi of loss or gain is about 3% change. That may not sound like much for 0.75 seconds......but each injection pulsewidth is measured in a handful of milliseconds. A millisecond is 1/1000 of a second. So from an injection dose.....0.5 ro 0.75 seconds of 1-2 psi of lower pressure....is significant.

This.....is why.....D-jet uses the TPS to literally SLING spare injections into the mix.....but the pulsewidth and timing of those injections....are un-metered and uncontrolled......so all they do is prevent a dangerously too lean situation in that short period of time.
They also frequently cause a too rich situation in those milliseconds......which is also a hp and throttle response loss.

D-jet runs well around these facts of life......because it runs a good deal richer across the board than modern injection with tightly controlled fuel pressure. By a good deal....I mean a few 10ths +/- of AF ratio....which is the difference between lean burn...and pig-rich. Its significant.

As noted its not really the pumps fault. Its the ring main volumes fault. Its early design.

You will see..... from looking at a late beetle with L-jet....and virtually every system built on anything since then....that there is a little fuel plenum for each pair of injectors. It holds about 2-3 ounces and has specific ducting inside. The ducting damps pressure pulses from the pump and equalizes pressure at the injector ports a bit.

The volume of these little gray plastic plenums.....under pressure. ....makes the pressure drop as injector pairs fire....about half....of what you find in in normal D-jet rails.

I have been using L-jet fuel plenums on my 412 since the late 90s.....with excellent results.

See....as sensitive as D-jet is to pressure swings.....L-jet actually had a worse problem. Its bank fired. All four injectors fire at once.

The fuel pressure stability sucks. The small fuel plenums help that. Also there is a kind of reverse overlapping harmonic result. A very slightly lean injection.....will result in a very slightly less powerful plwer stroke, exhaust overlap scavenge (with,our 106 to 108° lobe center cams).....which results in a minor power loss....which dips the vacuum signature almost too fast to see...which results in the vacuum indexed FPR of L-jet....making up about 1 psi or more of difference. It all works out.

Get a video camera like a go pro and set it at 1080P,an 60 frames per second and you can watch it happen in slow realtime on your gauges.

Modern cars....have realized that fuel pressure stability. ....is F*CKING CRITICAL.....to tight control, high hp and having the leanest mixture that is safe (and knock sensors are the policeman on this...but becoming less so).

The OEMs....have realized that on the early systems.....the combination of low fuel volume on the pressure side of the pump which includes the fuel ring and injectors.....as well as controlling fuel pressure too close to the injectors (the FPR has its own clicking harmonic you can hear with a stethoscope).....is what causes fuel pressure oscillations.

For example. ..its pure genius how VW keeps their fuel pressure rock solid stable at all rpms to about 0.5 psi....on their newer vehicles (most manufacturers have a version of this).

They do this by having about twice as much volume on the pressure side of the pump as D and L-jet or digifant.

The MAIN pressure regulator is in the fuel filter. It regulates the ring main pressure to 4 bars on earlier models and 6 bars on later models....54 to 86 psi.

So the gross pressure being delivered to the fuel ring main.....is close to 80 psi....about double what is required by the injectors.......so....removing a few milliseconds at 42 psi hardly dents or drops the volume at all.

The fine pressure setting is controlled at the end of the rail by a regulator.........and this is important to understand......that never has to close to create pressure....like our FPR on D-jet.
The pressure is ALREADY THERE.....more than the injector could need....so the regulator stays open to some level...electronically controlled....not vacuum....all the time.

The D-jet pressure regulator....is like literally putting your thumb over the end of the garden hose. As pressure drops...you squeeze your thumb down...as it rises...it fores your thumbs away as its form of metering.

The D-jet FPR...is 100% responsible for creating all of the pressure in your system. The pump is just a volume producer.

The modern FPR does not create pressure. It maintains it by releasing it constantly as a controlled orifice.
The actual check valve that prevents total loss of pressure after shut down...is back at the rear of the car. Wink

On our FPR....the pressure oscillation is caused by pressure dropping because the injectors open and bleed off pressure. The spring forces the plate closed ...nearly all the way....in the regulator for a few milliseconds until pressure/volume builds back up...forcing it open and starting the process again. Its an oscillation.

The new regs on new systems never really close.

Add to that....the large scale regulator in the fuel filter...which is on the pressure side above the pump.....had its own return line....which damps almost 100% of the rotor oscillation from the pump which is normally caused by the fuel charge coming out of the turbine ring or roller cell....and popping its way past the check valve.

I have been saying it for years....or you really want to play.....and do some different work with D-jet....it can be tuned much tighter for MUCH better throttle response and worthwhile better HP and torque than the factory level of tune.

But you MUST get a full handle on the fuel pressure if you ever want it to do more than stock....which is good running...but below the real potential of the engines displacement and compression.

For example......I got 102 hp from my Type 4 1.7L....about 91hp at the rear wheels and put 89k miles on it that way. Yes.....with a better version of the factory cam, some basic valve work and un-shrouding of valves....slightly larger valves....a better stock exhaust and simply a better ignition coil and points module....and considerable tuning of the fuel injection system and MPS......which was ONLY possible AFTER I got control over the fuel pressure.

It still was not perfect but I got +/- 0.5 to 0.75 psi resolution stability.....as compared to the +/- 1 psi swing these systems have new and +/- 1.5 to 2.0 psi swing they get when old.

That is a combined range swing of 1 psi. Modern cars have half that. Normal D-Jet...twice that at best....when new.

Ray
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potterjon
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Shocked
I checked the voltage at the pump and it read 11.6 volts. I checked it three times.
Forgive my late response but I am about 45 pages deep into the misadventures of the 69 square called lindsey lohan and my brain is absolutely fried.
I think I am understanding this vehicle more and more everyday and also the importance of all the connections and voltage required. I have tried tackling Trams FI relief thread a few times and have yet to get very far with it. As of now, I suppose I am thinking of ordering a new pump and having this one rebuilt as a spare. I still may try to unstick it with some diesel fuel but we have been having some nasty weather and the car is basically in a gravel driveway. The more I read the more I am intimidated by this automatic transmission fuel injected car. I am still trying to figure out how to use this multimeter. From what I understand, I could have checked that pump two ways.

1) set the multimeter to resistance in ohms and ground the black probe. Put the red wire in the plug to the hot wire coming from the ignition. Have someone turn the key on. That would tell me if I have a continuity correct?

2) Put one probe in each end of the plug and set meter to dcv 20 and have someone turn it on. That tells me voltage.

I did number 2.

Furthermore, you guys seem to be an absolute wealth of information and thank you for all your help. I am not sure if I should have started this thread or stuck to the last one I started. Full threads can make for very long reads when trying to just find a little info.

I am looking at the airtex E2000 and also this one

http://www.carparts.com/details/Ford/Ranger/Replac...gQoduowMIg

or this one which seems waaaaay too cheap

http://www.carparts.com/details/Ford/Ranger/Replac...5021671818


Last edited by potterjon on Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

You're doing all right. Don't get intimidated! It's easy to do with those long forum threads, but these cars are pretty simple.

If you've got voltage but the pump isn't running, it's kaput. Relax your mind and get an Airtex E2000 pump at your local parts house. That's what I did.

When you get it installed, see if the car will start. You should also get a gauge of some kind to check your fuel pressure.

And #1 above won't work. You can't check ohms with power on the circuit. You checked it the right way.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Fuel pressure gauge is next. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

I use this one, which Ray Greenwood recommended. Get the 0-2.5 bar (0-36 psi) version:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3548k11/=1153ffv

With you in North Carolina, you can order it from them one day and get it the next.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

I thought I wanted the one that ranged somewhere more in the 60 psi?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

ah, nevermind, I see why bobnotch does it that way .
"I went with the 0 to 60 gauge, as our working pressure is 28 to 32 psi, and that puts it right in the middle of the gauge (the accurate part of the gauge). "
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Yes, the one I linked is accurate to 1.5% over the entire range, which is why Ray recommended it. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Donnie strickland wrote:
Yes, the one I linked is accurate to 1.5% over the entire range, which is why Ray recommended it. Smile


Yeah, I'm not as anal about those sort of things like Ray is. What I used cost me about 10 bucks total (including the guage, coupler, hose barb, hose, and clamps), and works well enough for me. I only say that, as you've got 4 psi to play with (28 to 32psi working pressure), so you've got a little wiggle room. This means you don't have to spend 50 bucks (just for the guage), and another 5 or 6 bucks for the coupler, hose fitting, and hose and clamps just to use it once in a while. I think I've used mine 6 times since 2008, and most of that was in 1 summer. Shocked Turned out my fuel injection problem was actually a bad Voltage Regulator. Evil or Very Mad Nobody here caught it, and it was only after working with Jim Adney that I found my problem (I was slowly loosing voltage as I drove, which caused the system to run rich).

I've actually had more problems with bad condensors than dealing with fuel supply problems. Right now I just have the 1 FI car here (my wife's), and 1 carb car here (my Notch). When I get a "no start" (engine turns over), the first thing I check is to see if I have spark, not fuel pressure.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: How to check fuel pump? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Donnie strickland wrote:
Yes, the one I linked is accurate to 1.5% over the entire range, which is why Ray recommended it. Smile


Yeah, I'm not as anal about those sort of things like Ray is. What I used cost me about 10 bucks total (including the guage, coupler, hose barb, hose, and clamps), and works well enough for me. I only say that, as you've got 4 psi to play with (28 to 32psi working pressure), so you've got a little wiggle room. This means you don't have to spend 50 bucks (just for the guage), and another 5 or 6 bucks for the coupler, hose fitting, and hose and clamps just to use it once in a while. I think I've used mine 6 times since 2008, and most of that was in 1 summer. Shocked Turned out my fuel injection problem was actually a bad Voltage Regulator. Evil or Very Mad Nobody here caught it, and it was only after working with Jim Adney that I found my problem (I was slowly loosing voltage as I drove, which caused the system to run rich).

I've actually had more problems with bad condensors than dealing with fuel supply problems. Right now I just have the 1 FI car here (my wife's), and 1 carb car here (my Notch). When I get a "no start" (engine turns over), the first thing I check is to see if I have spark, not fuel pressure.


Bear in mind.....if am running a bone stock D-jet system.....and all it has to do is run.....smooth.....I dont need a $50 gauge either.

But guess what....it doesn't HURT on a bone stock system. ....and can actuallly pinpoint issues.....and without one......an accurate gauge.....there is a lot of potential power, smoothness throttle response....and longevity. ....that you will never unlock with a $10 gauge. Its especially good for diagnosing wear issues in regulators and pumps.

But hey.....if you want to stay with only the bare absolute minimum necessary to keep the car running.....go for it. Harbor freight is open late. Knock yourself out!

The bare minimum mentality is one of the reasons I'm not that interested in helping most people with D-jet these days. Ray
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