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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Diagonals from the center of the torsion up to the bottom ends of the 'X' or up to the ends of the cross tube above the torsion.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Thanks, I was pretty sure I did not want to run straight up and end at a "T". Speaking of that I started on some of the smallz in the rear.I got the bed sides on, and the 1 1/2" middle tube in between the roll bars that will be used for shock mounts. Looked like a unfinished job and ran a tube down to the top side rail and harness mounting bar. I think it looks more finished and shouldn't cause me to go up in flames.
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Got all the tubing in for the bed and tabbed for the aluminum sheet. Ended up at 39" wide and 34" long inside the top rail. Held my cooler/fan combo back below the bed and I think I need to get the engine in to see where I can find room for it.
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Built a brush guard for the lite bar. Looked a lot cooler in my head. Does have at least 1 redeeming feature, seems to run at the same angle as the roll bar x.
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

I had searched for pics of shock mounts on here and don't recall find a lot. Right or wrong, here is how I did mine. First I scared up some 1"x .250 tubing that was a snug fit for some 1/2" bolts. Due to the shape of the bottom shock eye and where I needed to locate the bottom mount I was forced to make a boss on my arm.
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I used a piece 1" long centered in the plate. I have heard that you should not simply drill a hole for mounting the shock, the rumors I have heard say that doing that won't stand up to much abuse. Next I blasted a 1" hole in the tubing for the top mount.
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I needed the top mount to be 1 1/2" out away from the tubing to properly mount vertically. I used a piece 3 1/4 long for the top boss with 1/4" stinking out on the inside for welding. There wasn't a lot of tubing left after blasting a hole in the tube, I knew it would not be enough so I added a couple of kickers for support.
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I did not want to stick on a piece of flat plate for the top mount like I see so many others have done. Make it mine right?
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thanks for reading this far, chuck
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

It's a little late for this car, but for those building other cars, IRS shock mount bolts top and bottom SHOULD be parallel to the inner pivot bolt.

With Heim-end shocks, the way you have your shock mounted will work fair. It will even work to a certain degree with rubber bushing shock ends. But unless the shock mount bolts are parallel to the pivot bolt, it will never be RIGHT.
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Crap. It is all only tacked together. Would I be ok to to wallow just a bit the hole in my arm to get the proper angle on that boss while understanding I also would have to replace the tube the top boss is in at the same time? I did find 4 bushings hiding in the box, I am assuming one on each side of the heims. I did get my filler tacked in along with the shoulder harness bars located. 2 steps forward, 5 steps back.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

I DID say that it was a little late for this car...

Cool

Honestly I'm not sure that I see a simple fix right off hand for mounting the shocks there.

You COULD angle the hole in the spring plate bracket for the boss. However you do it, you really MUST cycle the suspension to ensure it works all the way through the travel. It's possible the upper frame rail (about 2/3 of the way up the shock body) will get in the way. In fact, you MAY need to move the lower shock mount out onto the forward lateral part of the arm, instead of on the spring plate bracket to achieve proper shock geometry.

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Yes...There SHOULD BE a spacer on each side of the heim to allow the heim to articulate.

As a Tech Inspector, it would be nice if most all racers installed their fuel filler as nice as that. Some are downright scary.
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Dusty, thanks for not kicking me while I was down. Try this again. don't care to go any further without some kind of confirmation from somebody that I am on the right track.
Cut out the incorrect.
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Tack bosses in parallel to pivot bolt. From what I could tell the bolt is level side to side, and cocked at a 15* angle to the torsion. Right?
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I found a post by krazy baja that said the shock should be at 90* to the arm at full stuff. Guessing again that could mean 90* to both planes of the arm, front to rear and side to side? If that is the case, I need to remove 3/4" off of the top boss to accomplish while leaving enough to almost fit my hand all the way around. And Would reinforce top and bottom mounts when proper.
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pallen
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
It's a little late for this car, but for those building other cars, IRS shock mount bolts top and bottom SHOULD be parallel to the inner pivot bolt.

With Heim-end shocks, the way you have your shock mounted will work fair. It will even work to a certain degree with rubber bushing shock ends. But unless the shock mount bolts are parallel to the pivot bolt, it will never be RIGHT.


What is the advantage to doing this? Almost all go fast suspension setups I have browsed have the shocks mounted parallel to the wheel/ hub.
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

I am sure that mounting the shock in some kind of plane related to suspension movement will make for a easier working [ moving ?] suspension with less stress on moving parts[ longer lasting ?]. With what I read about 90* from the arm at full stuff, I am coming 90* off of the top of the square tube running from the center of the pivot to the center of the bearing hub.90 off of the long side for in/out and 90 off the short side for front/rear placement. Then throw it all out the window for a swing axle? All the surfing trying to educate myself is making my eyes bleed. Not a lot to be easily found by me. The shock thread was almost as exciting as the oil thread.
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Ended my search where I should have started, my 1982 edition of baja bugs and buggies I bought in 1984. Mr. Hibbard says;position the shock mounts so their centerlines ta both ends are parallel to the suspension pivot axis. The swing axle axis is described by a line thru the spring plate and axle tube pivots. The irs axis runs thru the spring plate pivot and the arm pivot. That it should be located as close to the tire as permitted. The shock should lean in at the top a little for tire clearance, and should be 90* to the spring plate at 1" before full compression. He also states heim equipped shocks need no washers, but rubber bushed shocks do.
So with that said, here one is.
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I wasn't just sitting around moping, I did get some more done. Torsion center supports, the missing pieces of my nerf bars, windshield hoop supports, and some grab handles for climbing in and out.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
Ended my search where I should have started, my 1982 edition of baja bugs and buggies I bought in 1984. Mr. Hibbard says;position the shock mounts so their centerlines ta both ends are parallel to the suspension pivot axis. The swing axle axis is described by a line thru the spring plate and axle tube pivots. The irs axis runs thru the spring plate pivot and the arm pivot. That it should be located as close to the tire as permitted. The shock should lean in at the top a little for tire clearance, and should be 90* to the spring plate at 1" before full compression. He also states heim equipped shocks need no washers, but rubber bushed shocks do.
So with that said, here one is.
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I wasn't just sitting around moping, I did get some more done. Torsion center supports, the missing pieces of my nerf bars, windshield hoop supports, and some grab handles for climbing in and out.
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Sorry I haven't answered this sooner. I had cancer surgery Thursday and barely able to get to the computer desk today, but I had to get out of bed.

You're doing quite well on this. It seems that you understand now. Jeff Hibbard wrote a good book way back when. Having known Jeff for several years before he published his 1st book, "The Complete Guide for going Off Road", I bought a copy of that 1st one. Then when he and I were racing together in Baja in the late 80s, he asked me to proof read the revised edition of the HP book "Baja Bugs and Buggies" that was based on the one he self-published. It's not been revised since that one I proof read. It still has a great deal of valid info.

The angle looks good in the pics.

Quote:
I am sure that mounting the shock in some kind of plane related to suspension movement will make for a easier working [ moving ?] suspension with less stress on moving parts[ longer lasting ?]. With what I read about 90* from the arm at full stuff, I am coming 90* off of the top of the square tube running from the center of the pivot to the center of the bearing hub.


You're right about smoother and and easier with less stress. While heim ends can tolerate some off angle operation, they are happiest when they're set up straight. And while many set up their cars with the shock bolts in line with the torsion bars, that doesn't mean that they are set up "right".
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Thanks and good luck. I know I am not the sharpest tool in the shed...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

I'm not a big fan of LED light bars, but the tube work looks good to me. Its got a good flow and looks unique, which is a good thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Thanks. I had a set of the cheap hf lites on top, didn't like those. Picked up the lite bar on fleabay for 50 bucks. It was sold as 4 watt cree led's with a ip67 waterproof rating.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Moving forward on the mockup. Seats and belts touched each other for the first time.
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Apparently the pedals have been mounted more than once making swiss cheese. I cut a piece of aluminum to fit under the pedals, but will stay on top of the floor tabs so I can drop the floor without disturbing he pedals.
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Started running the hard lines, throttle cable, and wiring. I like using the eyebolts for the throttle instead of tubing, seems to move more freely. Engine builder called yesterday, it's done. Went a different route on the heads. He came across a pair of new, unused scat heads that checked out ok for 350 less than the stage 2 empi's with his valves, springs and keepers.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Great build so far keep up the good work
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Thanks, Caleb. Here is the last of the planned upgrades. 74x94 with a 120 cam, cm pushrods, and bolt on rocker shaft. Different heads than from the original plan. It pays to be patient. My builders eyes started to look glazed over when he told me about them [ think of barely legals first trip to the tittie bar]. 15 yo, sealed, nib, scat,brazil, 044 ported/polished wedge ports with 40x 37.5 american valves, keepers, and retainers.
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Now another question. In the pic are 2 holes on either side of the crank and one more down and to the right, below the hex plug, and above the 20 in the date. Do these holes need to have some kind of item installed to prevent oil leaks?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:

Now another question. In the pic are 2 holes on either side of the crank and one more down and to the right, below the hex plug, and above the 20 in the date. Do these holes need to have some kind of item installed to prevent oil leaks?
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Those holes are for the screws to mount the lower splash pan that so many noobs leave on a VW motor when they convert it to offroad use. That piece of tin only has purpose if the engine is going into a full body sedan and needs to seal cooling air inlet from used hot air.

NO! The holes do NOT need to be filled. For your purposes they are simply un-used holes. (We've all met those before haven't we? It's generally for good reasons!)

There are also a pair of threaded holes on either side of the oil pump on your "Universal" replacement case. (visible to the right of the oil pump in your pic above) These are for rear motor mount in a VW bus. In a Bus, the engine is hanging from above the top of the bell housing and the back of the engine is supported by a bar that goes across under the back end of the block. Tens of thousands of offroad racers have demonstrated that a mount supporting the back of a Type 1 engine is absolutely NOT needed. While there are those lately who think it IS needed and there is even a kit available to bolt one to the oil pump studs on a case without the Bus mount bosses...MY observation has been that a lot of racers using such rear mounts tend to break their engine cases when the skidplate bangs on the ground. In fact, if your car had a rear mount when you were rear-ended, the hit to the rear cage would have broken your engine case and probably the trans case as well. Please don't let anyone talk you into installing one. One of the guys prepping to go on the Elko to Bodie adventure on STF-ORF recently installed one on his Baja. I couldn't persuade him otherwise. Like many of the recent offroad racers who feel such a mount is needed, I have trouble convincing him that keeping the skidplate away from the bottom of the case will also help keep the top of the case from breaking due to the engine being shoved up from below. It's also an OLD fix for Bug drag racers (and wannabe Bug hotrodders to add a rear support bar. Proper gear box mounts are the solution, not a band-aid fix like those support bars that attach to body sheet metal.
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: so soon? Reply with quote

Still going slower than I like. Installed some 18" hoses to complete the front brakes. Need to cycle again on disassembly to check for clearance.
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Ran 1 18" hardline up the arm and a 18" hose going to a tee that still needs to be located.
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Moving forward on completing the engine.


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