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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:15 am Post subject: New master cylinder |
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I'm looking at the possibility of buying a new/old stock master cylinder, and have a choice of ATE of FAG. Two questions----one, based on comments in previous posts the rubber in these though new can be deteriorated due to long shelf life. Two is there a preference as to ATE or FAG mfg. What's your thoughts. Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:34 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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There is no "possibility" that the rubber will be deteriorated in an NOS cylinder......IT IS A 100% CERTAINTY THAT IT WILL BE STIFFENED AND DETERIORATED.
I have had this problem easily......a dozen times.....back when the cylinders were only 10-12 years old at worst. Now they are easily 30 years old at best. That is back before I found where I could get new seals versus trying to buy all that was left to be available.
Both FAG and ATE were used from the factory and are equal....but very slightly different. The pistons will not transfer from one cylinder to the other because of inlet and outlet port spacing.
I have used seals from one brand to the other but not with 100% results. There are very subtle differences that are significant. So keep the same make seals in the same make cylinder. The exception are the Shafer brand seals which fit both.
The only reason I would spend a penny on an NOS brake cylinder of any type....is of my casting was pitted too badly to rebuild. The NOS cylinder "could" be a good rebuild core.
Expect that the NOS cylinder may also be a gamble. At this age.....its also common that after this many years....the assembly lube may have absorbed moisture and have light pits at the outer seal and definitely risk having corrosion between the piston and brass flap valves.
Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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OK, then you suggest it would be less of a gamble, and better to rebuild my old cylinder if not pitted. Do you mean pitted on the inside or outside or both. I understand on the inside would be no good. Mine is in perfect condition on the outside as far as core condition is concerned.
Rebuilt kits are available where? Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:12 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Pitted on the inside is all that is important. The problem with these master cylinders is that with normal wear, the small amount of seepage around the outer piston seal absorbs water and rusts. It rusts badly right at the seal lips. This pits the cast iron and makes it too rough to seal.....making leakage and air ingress even worse.
If the pits are more than about .002" deep or longer than about .015".....the cylinder cannot be rebuilt and will always leak.
This problem is mostly caused by where they are located. The types 1, 2, and 3 vehicles actually had less master cylinder issues in this area because they were mounted outside where the airflow along with the sealing boot kept the opening end dry and they got very little rusting around the outer seal.
The type 4 cars were no worse....when they were new. But...all of them as they have aged...leak a little around the window seals. This creates a high humidity interior. Large pieces of metal....like the master cylinder. ...get lots of condensation on them during temperature fluctuation....which is why even under the dash....the outside of the cylinder gets crusty and rusty.
When I lived in Dallas...during a two year period....where we had unbelievable rain.....nd my car was slightly leaky.....i had to rebuild the master cylinder 3 times due to rust at the outer end seal.
Yes....its best to rebuild yours if it can be. Look at the outside and see what brand. Right now rockauto has a Bendix brand master cylinder kit for 1973 type 3 fastback that lists it is Schafer brand. It is $25. You can use all the parts in the kit except the pistons. It should do well with both FAG and ATE. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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You must be more of a contortionist than me if you were able to get that cylinder in and out that many times. It might take be a few days to get it out with a couple of breaks, and then I'll be sore for about a month. It doesn't look like there is room to remove it, but you mentioned in previous posts, that it will pull back, down, and out.
My cylinder is working, and doesn't leak, but I don't seem to have as good a breaking power as I used to. It's the original mc, and I think I would feel better if it was replaced or rebuilt.
How do you tell which mfg it is? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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titan3c wrote: |
You must be more of a contortionist than me if you were able to get that cylinder in and out that many times. It might take be a few days to get it out with a couple of breaks, and then I'll be sore for about a month. It doesn't look like there is room to remove it, but you mentioned in previous posts, that it will pull back, down, and out.
My cylinder is working, and doesn't leak, but I don't seem to have as good a breaking power as I used to. It's the original mc, and I think I would feel better if it was replaced or rebuilt.
How do you tell which mfg it is? |
I can have it out in under 5 minutes without getting out of the seat.
Take a piece of saran wrap and put it under the cap on the fluid resovoir. This will limit what runs out.
Disconnect the battery. Remove the cardboard cover. Unscrew the fuel pump relay and let it hang on its wires. Pull the two brake light plugs off.
Get some rags to wrap the pedals in and a pan to put under the pedals. Have a small rubber cap ready to slip over the end of the brake fluid pipe to stop the flow.
Use a long flare wrench to crack open the brake lines....then finish with your fingers and a stubby flare wrench.
Use a socket, extension and universal joint to remove the two bolts. You will rind that with a little wiggling the cylinder has just enough room tilted upward about 30° from horizontal to pull rearward off the pushrod.
You can do all of this by feel but you can see most of it by leaning over on the passenger zeat and simply looking.
The only time i get down in the floor is once the cylinder is out and the fluid wiped up...I look around to make sure I pulled no wires loose....which is why the battery gets disconnected. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:15 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Ha, your more flexible, and limber than me. I'll try it from the seat, but don't think it will work for me. Maybe I'll be surprised. I just remove he fluid from the reservoir when doing something like this. I take the top off of a ordinary window cleaner or any spray container. Stick the tube in the reservoir, and pump it into another container.
Won't be doing this until the weather is warmer. Let you know how I did. Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:41 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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titan3c wrote: |
Ha, your more flexible, and limber than me. I'll try it from the seat, but don't think it will work for me. Maybe I'll be surprised. I just remove he fluid from the reservoir when doing something like this. I take the top off of a ordinary window cleaner or any spray container. Stick the tube in the reservoir, and pump it into another container.
Won't be doing this until the weather is warmer. Let you know how I did. Bob |
That is a good idea....but it wont keep you from getting nasty. There is almost a foot of hose from the reservoir to the master cylinder...two hoses actually.....and they hod a lot of fluid so just be prepared. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Yep I'm aware of that. I had to replace those hoses, and I learned that it's best for me to wear a welders face guard to keep brake fluid out of my eyes and mouth ha ha. No matter what you do it always seems to be a mess. Bob |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:34 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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I looked up the kit on Rock Auto, and also noticed that they have a master cylinder for our type 4's for $88.00. What do you think about that? Bob |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:43 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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titan3c wrote: |
I looked up the kit on Rock Auto, and also noticed that they have a master cylinder for our type 4's for $88.00. What do you think about that? Bob |
I saw that a while back. Its a big crap shoot. ....but of all companies. (Centric)...its the only one I have interest in seeing what they have to offer. Some pros and cons to think about:
PRO: It is a rebuild/reman. The casting fits no other vehicle and no one is going to recast and make new cylinders for our cars. With what I have seen over the past few years from Centric.....the quality of new build products range from very good to some of the best.
They have gotten deeper and deeper into rebuilding of many components. For the most part the quality seems excellent. ...
CON:....BUT.....some of what I have seen in the rebuild components....is not rebuilt by Centric....but bought and repackaged under the Centric brand name....just like any other cokmon FLAPS brand.......AND.......some items that have been acquired and repackaged by Centric.....are also old and semi-old stock.
An example of components like thiw are the Centric caliper rebuild kits I bought last year. When they arrived.....they were actually FAG top quality kits.....with a Centric paper label slapped onto the FAG bags.
So....there is no telling what you will get from Centric.
This master Cylinder may be NOS......in which case its not worth even half of the $88 and is nothing but a core for rebuild.
Or......
It could be a recent rebuild by anyone from a top notch company like the Beck Arnley network to A-1 Cardone.....or from one of the factory rebuilds from 6-8 years ago that the former Lucas works was doing under contract for FAG and ATE.....which may be nearing useful lifespan age.....
Or.....it could be a new rebuild by one of Centric's companies or even Varga. If this is the case.....Centric or Varga would be one of the handful that has the resources to oversize the cylinder and drop in new pistons and seals.....rare...but its been seen in some of the remanned watercooled cylinders and even some of the remanned beetle and bus cylinders on German castings.
If so.....they function well...but cannot be user rebuilt when they wear out because they now have new pattern seals, pistons, valves and spring mounts.
So......personally. ....I think $88 is a crapshoot. Depending on your resources its either worth it to find out......or a waste of money.
The problem is if its either NOS or over 4-5 years old.....its life can be measured in a huge range from a few minutes to a few months. Either way....if its NOS or shelf aged.....you will be getting used to removing and installing the MC quickly just like me.
Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:05 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Very interesting, Thanks. I noticed on the Schafer mc repair kit as listed on Rockauto, shows only a few parts which don't look like what would be a complete repair kit. I have never repaired one, but looking on the mc breakdown on my Haynes Manual P136 it looks like more parts should be replaced.
It looks like the kit has 2 primary cups, 2 cup washers, 1 spring ring, 1 seal(maybe for sealing plug), and a new boot. Also the pistons which I can't use. Will this be enough to rebuild the mc? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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titan3c wrote: |
Very interesting, Thanks. I noticed on the Schafer mc repair kit as listed on Rockauto, shows only a few parts which don't look like what would be a complete repair kit. I have never repaired one, but looking on the mc breakdown on my Haynes Manual P136 it looks like more parts should be replaced.
It looks like the kit has 2 primary cups, 2 cup washers, 1 spring ring, 1 seal(maybe for sealing plug), and a new boot. Also the pistons which I can't use. Will this be enough to rebuild the mc? |
What you see in the picture.....is ALL there is in the master cylinder.....that really needs to be replaced. In reality.....one could call it a "3/4" kit. With a kit of this type you normally re-use your original springs and you reuse your external brake light switches and the residual pressure valves. There have never been kits even for the dealer that included external components. Rebuild kits are hydraulic internal parts only.
There are two pistons....each has two seals, one flap valve and one spring and retainer assembly. Ray |
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titan3c Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012 Posts: 568 Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Yes, I understand kits are for internal repair. But what bothers me, there are 4 primary cups in the cylinder, and only two in the kit. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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titan3c wrote: |
Yes, I understand kits are for internal repair. But what bothers me, there are 4 primary cups in the cylinder, and only two in the kit. |
In the kit picture.....you will notice that the rest of the cups.....are already installed on the pistons.
This is the only difficulty in using the cups/ seals from a kit that has pistons with it. You will need to lay your original pistons out.....in order....with springs and cup retainers removed.
Then one at a time....with an o-ring pick/hook....(blunt the end of the hook with sandpaper to lessen the riak of damaging the seals as you remove them)......you will need to remove the seal from each location on the donor set.....and lay it out next to your old pistons in the correct orientation so you can put it back together correctly.
It can help to soak the pistons and seals in hot water to soften them both before removing them from the new pistons and before installing them on the old ones. Stretch them as little as possible.
Ray |
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KombiMarc Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2010 Posts: 431 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
titan3c wrote: |
Yes, I understand kits are for internal repair. But what bothers me, there are 4 primary cups in the cylinder, and only two in the kit. |
In the kit picture.....you will notice that the rest of the cups.....are already installed on the pistons.
This is the only difficulty in using the cups/ seals from a kit that has pistons with it. You will need to lay your original pistons out.....in order....with springs and cup retainers removed.
Then one at a time....with an o-ring pick/hook....(blunt the end of the hook with sandpaper to lessen the riak of damaging the seals as you remove them)......you will need to remove the seal from each location on the donor set.....and lay it out next to your old pistons in the correct orientation so you can put it back together correctly.
It can help to soak the pistons and seals in hot water to soften them both before removing them from the new pistons and before installing them on the old ones. Stretch them as little as possible.
Ray |
hey guys, so trying to get my 411 on the road, specifically stopping correctly, lol. took out MC and inside looks like a new penny, clean as a whistle. the cups actually look good, but won't hold pressure. Sooooo......looking for rebuild kit preferably. the MC is an ATE.
Ray seems to be most knowledgeable person on the type V (helping me sort fuel pump relay on a mother thread), hoping for some help here as well.
I struck out with Napa, they had a MC, but can't get no more. Went to Rock Auto and they list a Centric, but out of stock. Add name to the notify list. They do list a raybestos rebuild kit, only have one in stock. so I am inclined to order it, but wondering if that is a rebuild kit for the centric, or ??? not expensive so maybe worth the risk, but if it doesn't work, then what?
thoughts? Do any of the type 3 kits work on the ATE? I gotta get this thing on the road!!! _________________ ________________
Thanks Marc
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'65 Type II Kombi Rebuild Thread
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KombiMarc Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2010 Posts: 431 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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ok so went back to rock auto website and that raybestos is not listed now......crapola!!
Now what? _________________ ________________
Thanks Marc
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'65 Type II Kombi Rebuild Thread
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Yes...the type 3 kits are what I have used quite a bit.....but use only the seals and brass flap valves. Do not use the type 3 springs or pistons.
So you need to disassemble the primary poston carefully to get to the inner seal and flap valve because you have to put it back together.
Try to use an ATE type 3 kit with an ATE type 4 piston and FAG with FAG. Back in the day there were very slightly seal fit issues.
The shaeffer are usually universal. I just dont know yet on Centric. Ray |
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KombiMarc Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2010 Posts: 431 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes...the type 3 kits are what I have used quite a bit.....but use only the seals and brass flap valves. Do not use the type 3 springs or pistons.
So you need to disassemble the primary poston carefully to get to the inner seal and flap valve because you have to put it back together.
Try to use an ATE type 3 kit with an ATE type 4 piston and FAG with FAG. Back in the day there were very slightly seal fit issues.
The shaeffer are usually universal. I just dont know yet on Centric. Ray |
ok will search for that as well... _________________ ________________
Thanks Marc
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'65 Type II Kombi Rebuild Thread
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KombiMarc Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2010 Posts: 431 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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ray, is there a specific part number you are aware of? _________________ ________________
Thanks Marc
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'65 Type II Kombi Rebuild Thread
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