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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:59 pm Post subject: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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I normally use Samba for the old Beetles/Bugs I have, but at the moment I'm in the process of buying a May 79 Cabrio from Europe, in nice running condition, and have been looking around to see how many of these cars are left world wide. Very few it seems. Is there anybody in the US who has a 79 Cabrio?
The car has 1980 on style bumpers, but I assume that these earlier cars had metal items, like the 79 saloons, but when exactly did they stop fitting these to the Cabrio? I read somewhere else that they were never fitted to Cabrios, but that doesn't sound correct. Any views please? |
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ps2375 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2014 Posts: 2471 Location: Meridian,ID
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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The only VW drop-top in the US market in 79 was the Beetle, as far as I could find. |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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There is a Registry in the US of Mk1 Golf Cabrios, http://www.cabby-info.com/Registry/1979.htm and it seems the one I am buying is older than the oldest one listed here.
Strangely, under the 1980 listings http://www.cabby-info.com/Registry/1980.htm there are some late 79's, with a number from the US, and from this I assume that they must have been selling them in the US in late 79. |
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ps2375 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2014 Posts: 2471 Location: Meridian,ID
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:09 pm Post subject: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Interesting brochures, which clearly show that what you had in the US is quite different to what we got here in Europe. I assume that the Cabrios were built by Karmann in Germany, and exported to the US. The bumpers on the US cars look huge, obviously for the 5mph impact requirement.
I'm looking forward to getting this late April/Early May 79 Cabrio when it arrives after Xmas, and feel quite lucky to have found it. There must be others hidden away somewhere, waiting to come out of hibernation! |
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ps2375 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2014 Posts: 2471 Location: Meridian,ID
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Yes, we had "real" bumpers and less power. It wasn't till 84 that we got a GTI with 90hp. |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Martin Southwell wrote: |
Is there anybody in the US who has a 79 Cabrio? |
No 1979 Golf I cabrio was ever sold (new) on these shores. The Golf I/Rabbit cabrio was imported beginning with the 1980 model year.
Martin Southwell wrote: |
The car has 1980 on style bumpers, but I assume that these earlier cars had metal items, like the 79 saloons, but when exactly did they stop fitting these to the Cabrio? I read somewhere else that they were never fitted to Cabrios, but that doesn't sound correct. Any views please? |
The 1979 Golf I cabriolets were not fitted with metal bumpers; they only ever received the plastic-over-metal bumpers. The exception to this is the prototype car, which resides in the Karmann-now-Volkswagen museum in Osnabrueck.
Here is the 1979 production car debut from the Geneva Auto Show:
Martin Southwell wrote: |
Strangely, under the 1980 listings http://www.cabby-info.com/Registry/1980.htm there are some late 79's, with a number from the US, and from this I assume that they must have been selling them in the US in late 79. |
Karmann manufactured the 1979 Golf I cabrios from January to June/July 1979. The 1980 cabrios were built from August 1979 to July 1980. In North America, unlike in the UK, registrations are based on model year, not the production date. The Cabriolet Registry entries are also based on model year, not production date.
Martin Southwell wrote: |
I assume that the Cabrios were built by Karmann in Germany, and exported to the US. |
Yes; all Golf I convertibles were built by Karmann... all 388,522 of them. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Many thanks for this information, and the photo of the Geneva car. Much appreciated. That means that I don't have the expense of buying the earlier style metal ones.
The car is a late April, or early May 1979, 1500 GLS, and so would it have the same wheels as in the Geneva photo? i.e. Early GTi style? The ones fitted at present are after market items, as is the steering wheel.
What steering wheel should it have please? I do have both the early styles in the garage somewhere, but pressumably not fitted with the early GTi style, but the boring 2 spoke, block type?
Any other photos would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Martin Southwell on Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Martin Southwell wrote: |
The car is a late April, or early May 1979, 1500 GLS, and so would it have the same wheels as in the Geneva photo? i.e. Early GTi style? |
Those alloys were optional equipment for the GL and GLS. It is the steel wheels that are most commonly swapped out, so there's a good chance it originally had steel wheels. If you get the car and it still has its build sheet sticker in the trunk/boot, take a look at the M-codes and decode them here: http://www.cabby-info.com/mcodes.htm .
Martin Southwell wrote: |
What steering wheel should it have please? I do have both the early styles in the garage somewhere, but pressumably not fitted with the early GTi style, but the boring 2 spoke, block type? |
Based on the two '79 GLS's I have in my archives, it should have come with this one:
Why a PO swapped ^that one out...
The GL in my archives has this:
_________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:08 pm Post subject: A newly found & purchased, July 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Again many thanks for this information, which I've just found on my return to the UK, having been in Europe over Xmas. Having previously mentioned the intended purchase of the April/May 79 Cabrio to a German friend, she came back to me with information of a July 79 Cabrio she had found for sale. She confirmed that the chassis number started with 159, and so it is an early, pre 1980 year model.
To cut a long story short, she and her husband are buying the car for me on New Years Eve, and are driving the car to the UK on the 6th January, even booking the ferry crossing today! Is finding two early cars some sort of record, or are there many 'unfound' early cars out there waiting to be found?
From the picture, it can be seen that the car, although not in the first flush of youth, is presentable, and has recently passed its goverment road test, but has 'boy racer' wheels, a later steering wheel, and no doubt other modernising items fitted, which will be swiftly replaced.
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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The friends, who live the south of Holland, Maastrict, have today collected the car from the north of Holland, a drive of over 200 miles each way, and say that it drives well, and is quick, despite its 350,000Kms on the clock, doing a steady 135kph on the motorway.
They say that the paperwork shows that it was 1st registered on 16th July 1979, a 1500 GLS model, and was originally Yellow (Lemon Yellow I assume).
The chassis number is given in the documentation as 15928006xx, but suspect that if a July model, then maybe it should be 15928066xx. However, if the number provided turns out to be correct, then this would make the car a very early model.
I'll find out exactly when the car arrives here in the UK at the end of next week, after another 350 mile drive. I hope the cam belt lasts, as nobody knows when it was last changed, and one of the 1st jobs on my list. |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: Is this really a 1978 Golf Cabrio? |
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Today I have been sent some photos of the details of the above car, and we're all more confused than ever! Why? As can be seen from the pictures, there is now no doubt as to the chassis number of this car: 1592800674 which makes it an early production car.
However, there is no build sheet sticker in the boot/trunk, but the somewhat rusty PKN plate (see picture) bearing the numbers 453 8130, with the 45 being the week number of its production, which equates to November.
Given that the chassis numbers starting 159 finished at the end of July 1979, then how come November? One explanation: If you look at https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/golf-cabriolet/ you can see that in one part of the script it says:
Over time many other models came to be based on the original Golf platform. Cabrio (Typ 155) The Golf Cabrio was first presented to VW by Karmann in December 1976, it was essentially the same car we know now as the Golf Cabrio, but was lacking the trademark rollbar, there is some confusion as to when the first models were produced with some sources saying September '78 and others suggesting February '79, the car was first unveiled at the Geneva motor show in March '79. The cabrio was launched to the European market in July 1979, and followed onto the US market as a 1980 model year car, badged as a Rabbit Convertible.
One area, reproduced above, talks about confusion as to when production of the Golf Cabrio actually started, with some stating that it was as far back as September 1978. So, this car being produced in November 1978 would make sense. It's difficult to believe that Karmann didn't keep a proper record of production dates/figures, as the Germans in my experience keep meticulous records on just about everything.
The other odd thing here, is that the car was said to be 1st registered in July 1979, and so it must have been hanging around somewhere for months before registration. Why?
The friend in Holland has just sent me an e-mail to say that he has looked on this web-site http://golf1-ig.de/golf/facts/vin_analysis/index.php and it says the car was produced in February 1979, and even the first car produced, chassis 0001 was made in February, up to around 1100. Maybe Karmann were trying to' tidy up' production figures on paper, even adding cars made in reality prior to February 1979?
From the lack of response on the Samba web-site re this subject, I doubt anybody in the US has answers to these questions. Then again, Germany itself doesn't seem to have definitive answers!
Last edited by Martin Southwell on Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:47 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: November 1978? |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Is this really a 1978 Golf Cabrio? |
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Martin Southwell wrote: |
The chassis number is given in the documentation as 15928006xx, but suspect that if a July model, then maybe it should be 15928066xx. |
Just because it was first registered in July does not in any way mean the car was built in July.
Martin Southwell wrote: |
Today I have been sent some photos of the details of the above car, and we're all more confused than ever! Why? As can be seen from the pictures, there is now no doubt as to the chassis number of this car: 1592800674 which makes it an early production car. |
There shouldn't be any doubt about the VIN. What is on the paperwork is stamped into the sheet metal (shock tower), the rivet plate, and, I presume, the dash plate.
Martin Southwell wrote: |
However, there is no build sheet sticker in the boot/trunk, but the somewhat rusty PKN plate (see picture) bearing the numbers 453 8130, with the 45 being the week number of its production, which equates to November.
Given that the chassis numbers starting 159 finished at the end of July 1979, then how come November? One explanation: If you look at https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/golf-cabriolet/ you can see that in one part of the script it says:
Over time many other models came to be based on the original Golf platform. Cabrio (Typ 155) The Golf Cabrio was first presented to VW by Karmann in December 1976, it was essentially the same car we know now as the Golf Cabrio, but was lacking the trademark rollbar, there is some confusion as to when the first models were produced with some sources saying September '78 and others suggesting February '79, the car was first unveiled at the Geneva motor show in March '79. The cabrio was launched to the European market in July 1979, and followed onto the US market as a 1980 model year car, badged as a Rabbit Convertible.
One area, reproduced above, talks about confusion as to when production of the Golf Cabrio actually started, with some stating that it was as far back as September 1978. So, this car being produced in November 1978 would make sense. It's difficult to believe that Karmann didn't keep a proper record of production dates/figures, as the Germans in my experience keep meticulous records on just about everything.
The friend in Holland has just sent me an e-mail to say that he has looked on this web-site http://golf1-ig.de/golf/facts/vin_analysis/index.php and it says the car was produced in February 1979, and even the first car produced, chassis 0001 was made in February, up to around 1100. |
The PKN shows November, yes; however, Karmann's production dates for the Golf Cabrio are February 1979 to December 2001, with a total of 600,595 built over the two chassis generations.
Because this is a 1979 car, that means it is now 37 years old. It is no longer its factory color (nor its original interior), so it could very well have had body work done in its past, including a used core support installed. In other words, that PKN plate could very well not belong to that car. To know for certain when the car was built, you'll need to send away for a birth certificate: http://automuseum.volkswagen.de/en/certificates-and-data-sheets.html (be aware that it could take several months to receive).
Martin Southwell wrote: |
The other odd thing here, is that the car was said to be 1st registered in July 1979, and so it must have been hanging around somewhere for months before registration. Why? |
Because no one wanted it until July, it was a dealer showroom princess, it was a test-drive car, it was a promo car, it wasn't delivered until June/July... lots of reasons why. There was a 1993 Cabriolet in my college town that didn't sell until 1995 (you read that right)... small mountain town + expensive convertible = showroom princess until the right buyer walked in.
Congrats on getting a little piece of history. Looks like it needs some work/love, but good to see another '79 is still running around. If you do get a certificate from VW, please post up the build date... I'm rather curious what the factory records say. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Dear Kamz - Many thanks again for your feedback.
I appreciate the many potential reasons for the car not being registered until July 79, but February until July does sound like a long time for it to be unregistered, particularly on the German home market, where I suspect it started its motoring career. As you say, being used a demonstrator somewhere is a distinct possibility, but who knows.
The German friend who found the car for me, will do some research on the subject. especially as her home town isn't a million miles from Osnabruck. I've asked if she can find out the chassis number of the Geneva Show Car, and will ask her to write in the local paper, to see if there are people still around who remember the early production days, and what went on.
I'm inclined to believe what it says on VW Heritage's web-site, and will follow that up with them i.e. That cars were produced prior to February 79, even if they were deemed by VW/Karmann as only being produced from February onwards.
Having dealt with the VW museum over many years, I can categorically say that the service they offer these days is a shadow of its former self, and their knowledge base is poor.
As you say, it takes months for a 'Birth Certificate' to arrive, and the last one I had was wrong. I even wrote to Martin Winterkorn (Now Ex CEO) at VW last year, to complain about the service, and got mine 4 days later (Incorrect details provided on paint colour!) I will get details from them on this car however, and they may be surprised that I have something so new! When it arrives, then I'll post it here.
The car, in view of its survival against the odds, will be restored to its former glory, as far as is practical. I've even got an NOS GLS badge coming from Belgium, which along with the correct steering wheel, and wheels, will be a start.
There have to be other early 79's out there waiting to be found, but finding one earlier than chassis number 0674 is not going to be easy I suspect, and so i'm lucky to find it. |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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As predicted, here is another early Golf Cabrio for sale, this time in Belgium. Said to be a March 1979 model, it has been 'modernised' to look like any other pimped up Golf Cabrio: http://www.2dehands.be/autos/volkswagen/golf/golf-1-cabrio-263705532.html I'm going to see if I can get the chassis number from the seller.
My Feb 79 car still hasn't made it to the UK, but hopefully next week. Of course this involves extra ferry costs, having previously booked the sailing. The car seemed to have had intermitent fuel starvation problems, which is down to dirt in the fuel tank we think, and one of the gear change rods fell off at one end, leaving only 3 & 4 gear!
The gear change rods have now been changed, and we hope the fuel problem has been solved, at least for the journey to the UK (Where I'll have the tank out) by changing the fuel pump, the fuel vapour separator, and blowing air back down the fuel line. The motorway/free test is going on as I write this, and if OK, then we can re-book the ferry. Such fun! |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: 1978 Golf Cabrio - Yes, Really! |
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Fast forward a couple of months, and the car is now in the UK being worked on, having been trailered across Europe for me, by a young enthusiastic Lithuanian guy. Another long story!
I've written to VW with details of the car, and the reply that came back yesterday, which I've copied and pasted below, said this:
After careful research of all our available records, we fortunately could locate the following information.
VIN: 1592 800 674
Model: Golf Cabriolet GLS
2 doors
51 kW/70 PS, manual gearbox
Outside color ex works: Indiana-red-metallic/folding top: light sand
Inside color ex works: Upholstery: fabric “Multicolor” gazelle
Upgrade ex works: 2 pelvic restraint belts with retractor rear
2 automatic 3-point-safty belts front
alloy rim 5Jx13
steel belt tires 175/70 SR 13
Production: 14.06.1978 in Osnabrück, Germany
Delivery: 20.06.1978 to Germany
This came as something of a surprise, as the perceived wisdom is that Karmann didn't start building the cars until Feb 1979, and I believed that this car was built in November 1978. Was anybody aware that Golf Cabrios were built this early?
What alloy wheels were 5J x 13". If the same as the Geneva Motor Show car, then these are 5.5J. |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:39 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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I wrote to VW again to try and clarify the production date, and have just received this reply:
thank you for your Email.
The serial production of the Golf Cabriolet was started at February 1979. So, it seems that you will have a pre-serial model.
Kind regards,
Corporate History Department
Volkswagen Group Communications
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Karmannut Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2007 Posts: 139 Location: North Canton Ohio
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio |
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Fantastic awesome find1 please keep sending pics very interesting! congrats! _________________ Rupert- 64 Sea Blue Beetle with 66 Dove Lodgette tent
Bunny- 84 grey Rabbit Convertible
Pepper-18 Habanero Orange Beetle SE Premium
Air and Water do mix! |
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Martin Southwell Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010 Posts: 971 Location: Bath, England
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:04 am Post subject: Re: 1979 Golf Cabrio Wheel Colour |
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The original style wheels, 4 of which I've had for years, were handed to a company who specialise in refurbishing wheels, and they stripped the paint from them, but then decided that the repairs weren't going to be easy, and so I've done them! However, this means that I don't now have the original wheel colour for matching! The wheels are in primer, and awaiting the fittment of tyres, but what paint colour do I use?
Any ideas welcomed! |
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