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Splitting case/changing lifters and pushrods
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Singerdude
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:59 pm    Post subject: Splitting case/changing lifters and pushrods Reply with quote

Okay, I'm gonna add a little background in a bit but for the "to the point" folks around here my question is: how hard/labor intensive would it be to split the case to replace faulty lifters and pushrods for a first-timer?

Engine is a 2110 82x90,5 with an engle 125. I do not know the ratio of the rockers but I'm pretty sure they're 1.25's. If it's any use to anyone it's a cookie cutter turnkey from Wright gearbox. The engine havent passed the 3000 miles mark and has had 3 oil changes: one at 500, another at 1500 and one just before I took it out of the car. The Oil I use is Brad Penn 20/50.

From the 1500 oil change the valves would loosen in shorter and shorter Intervals so I took the rockers assembly appart to get to the pushrods and found all 8 to be badly worn on the lifter side. The guy from local shop told me to bring it down for a thourough inspection and I reluctantly did. I say reluctantly because I've been burned with them earlier this summer on another job that ended up costing waaaayy too much and keeping my buggy off the street all of july and august. Let's just say that they also do vintage Porsches and they are used to deep pockets and unlimited budgets so they start jobs without clear estimates of cost or delivery time, they mark every part up 20 to 40% and they're overbooked without even advertising. I guess thats the perks of being the only true-to-life VW shop in a 200 miles radius. Maybe it is just the way every custom shops work, but being a car noob, It was a bitter pill to swallow.

Anywho, he called me back saying that the lifters were toast for sure and he'd have to split the case, cut some new pushrods,change the lifters and maybe the cam too. But for all the reasons listed above, I'm considering retrieving the engine from the shop and doing the job myself. I was gonna re-build a small engine this winter to get used to the inner-workings of an aircooled engine on something other than my main ride. That way it wouldn'nt matter as much if I mess up. But now might be the time to up my game.
I 'm still not 100% confident in my ability to not screw this up but I'm kind of out of options for outsourcing the job. So any advice would be welcome. Thanks
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the lifters are chewed up, change the cam. If you are replacing it all with the same parts you should be able to make sure the old pushrods give you the right geometry and get a set pre-cut to replace them. If they the lifters are flaking quite badly I would do a total tear down and check all the bearings and make sure all the oil galleys are clean. All those pieces went somewhere.

brad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a tough decision. I've been in similar situations, and ended up doing the job myself. It wasn't because I was afraid of screwing things up (I was afraid), but because it was the only financial way it was going to get done. In one sense, the engine is together, so you would hope that all the needed machine work for the larger crank/pistons was done correctly. In another sense, if the lifters are severely worn, that material has gone somewhere, and it's more likely other components besides the cam/lifters need replaced. Do you have ANYONE close that could help you along with the build, or are you 100% on your own? The only difference between you, and the guys at the shop is knowledge, and experience. You can read lots about engines to gain a lot of the same knowledge, but you have to "do" to gain certian knowledge/experience.
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Singerdude
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the monetary thing is begining to take its toll... Long story short I'm also a scuba diving enthusiast and with what I spent this year alone on this car I could have had 4-5 diving trips of a Lifetime. And sadly most of that was the cost of labor.

Brad, oddly enough the pushrods weren't all the same lenght... Not wanting to throw stones at the builder but it feels an awful lot like a friday afternoon build to me! And about replacing with the same parts, the guy from the shop told me that even without tearing the case apart he was 95% sure that the lifters were bugpack because he's seen multiple failures of bugpack lifters. If it is so, I'm definitely NOT putting the same stuff back in... But there was also a bit of side play in the rocker arm assembly, maybe that could have had something to do with the failure. In any case, I'll factor a new cam in the budget as well

I'm not 100% alone, I've got 2 mechanicaly gifted and very generous neighbors who are kind enough to offer a helping hand. One is a speedbike racer who does his own racing engines but is a VW virgin. The other one is a former Snowmobile drag racing team mechanic who used to own a buggy so he knows a bit about performance tunning and the VW engine, but he hasn't done any VW performance work per-se. There's also a small machine shop 3 streets down from my place.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:47 am    Post subject: Rebuild Reply with quote

If you let the rip off shop do it you are in for a major wallet reM.Do it yourself with the local mech.help.get some performance books for specs me sure measure clean clean after tearing the whole deal down
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you say the pushrods are worn on the lifter end? Got any pics? What do the cups look like on the lifters? I'm trying to figure out how the shop could tell the lifters were bad (and the brand) in an assembled motor. If all the wear was on the pushrods, and you're running an oil filter, you might get away without a teardown. You may have just gotten an improperly hardened set of pushrods.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject: shop Reply with quote

I agree that shop needs to be left alone the motor removed and further work performed by anyone but them Cool but how did the oil look was it full of metal ? how about the filter?Cut it open and see how mush junk is in there.The bearings get majorly abused when trash flows in the oil.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do have someone that's able to help with some knowledge, I'd say go for it. The first few builds I did turned out well, but someone who was experienced was always there to ask, "is this right"? Like with anything, there are certain tips/tricks for an engine assembly to make things easier that have been learned along the way. If your help has built other engines before, you should be able to figure it out. I think what Brad was talking about, and what I was leaning to is that you are starting with a complete engine. You may not want to use the same brand of replacement parts, but you have parts that you can use as a pattern to copy dimensions off of if everything was correct to begin with. Building a stroker engine for your first engine from scratch would be a daunting task, but you'll be simply taking things apart, and replacing what is bad. All of the clearance issues needing addressed in a stroker engine should be already done. I've heard good things about Engle's line of cam/lifter kits, as well as Steve Long Racing having cam/lifter kits with the components surface ground to better match each other. Either way, get a cam that has been stroker clearanced, and you won't have to worry too much about interference with the crank/rods.
It stinks that you have paid out a lot of labor for previous work, but it is what it is. With hourly labor rates in the $50-$80 range, getting anything done ends up being expensive. I would try not to burn the bridge with the shop the engine is at now, because you never know when you may need something in the future. If you do decide to pick the engine up, simply tell them you don't have the funds to do it right now.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I would try not to burn the bridge with the shop the engine is at now, because you never know when you may need something in the future. If you do decide to pick the engine up, simply tell them you don't have the funds to do it right now.


That was exactly my plan...

Now pretty much all the push rods look like this, some marginally better

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The oil had a very subtle sheen but no metal shavings or pieces. I run Mann filters, I'l try to pry the last one open to see if there's anything in there.

2nd cashboy, the bugback lifters preliminary diagnostic was made after the shop guy talked to his mentor and former boss. The man in question has built hundreds of performance engines, tuned even more of them and after seeing the pics of the pushrod ends he replied without hesitation: "I've seen a lot of bugpack lifters go bad and do exactly that, I'd bet my shirt that's what it is". Having built exactly zero engine myself, I can't argue.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen cheap pushrods do that. Not sure if they had the wrong radius machined on the ends, or maybe the ends weren't hard enough, but changing to a known quality part fixed it. Possibly the lifter(s) don't have the push rod seat correctly machined. I would split it, so that I could more carefully inspect the lifters before deciding what to replace.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:30 pm    Post subject: bugpak lifters Reply with quote

I had a set of bugpuke lifters go bad at 800mmiles on a brand new motor.After a total rebuild it runs great with cb lightweight lifters
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure you can do it yourself!
I've done a cam change on my daily driver in one afternoon on a Tuesday, perhaps four hours including removing and replacing the engine.

It is not necessary to disassemble the entire engine.
The left head and cylinders can be left in place, and the crank can stay in the left side of case, flywheel can stay on too. You just have to take off the right head and cylinders and crank pulley, then the case can be split.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you contacted the builder? Maybe freight will be cheaper than parts? Or perhaps he will help with the parts? Seems like there should be some sort of warranty.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modok, you're making my day by saying I just have to take out one half of the engine! And it took you only 4 hours? The shop told me that it'd be 10 to 12 hours ( including taking out and sanding the valve stems tips that have been unevenly worn out and installing lashcaps plus new swivel feet adjusters).

I'm going there tomorrow and take my engine back home...


rosevillain wrote:
Have you contacted the builder? Maybe freight will be cheaper than parts? Or perhaps he will help with the parts? Seems like there should be some sort of warranty.


I'm in eastern Canada and the builder is in California. Original shipping was about 750$ so it would be 1500 both ways... If it's just a couple hundreds for lifters, pushrods and a bit of hardware I think I will take the learning opportunity.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, four hours, a half "dirty rebuild"

They probably want to clean and inspect everything, which...... might be worth doing, or it might not.
Cleaning all the parts sometimes takes longer than taking it apart.
Most of the metal dust should be in the bottom of the sump and in the oil filter.
"should be"
So you may be able to go without cleaning everything.
i would look closely at the cam bearings, center main, and the two piston skirts and if they look clean then, then you can assume the oil filter was working.

I don't know what the deal is with the valve tips........? Did you have the swivel ball adjusters and the lash was so big the ball rotated so the flat spot was not against the valve??
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:


I don't know what the deal is with the valve tips........? Did you have the swivel ball adjusters and the lash was so big the ball rotated so the flat spot was not against the valve??


I think that might have happened. As a safety measure I will change all the adjusters. But I just got the engine back and I will post pics as soon as it is out of the trailer. As for cleaning, is parts cleaner and compressed air through the oil galleys the way to go?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is what the valves from cyl 1&2 side looks like. See there is uneven wear on the swivel feet and valve tips. So I'change the ball adjusters and try to have the valve tips lightly grinded and install lashcaps.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that's exactly what happened!
Consider the porsche style adjusters from CB, they cannot do that!

As a general rule I won't take off more than .015" from a hard tip....and some of that damage looks to be in excess of that, so, you might just get some valves and swap them in. Valves are about 12$ each, and the new ones might be better than what you had.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Yep, that's exactly what happened!
Consider the porsche style adjusters from CB, they cannot do that!

As a general rule I won't take off more than .015" from a hard tip....and some of that damage looks to be in excess of that, so, you might just get some valves and swap them in. Valves are about 12$ each, and the new ones might be better than what you had.


Does the valve repacement require some tricky "professional tuner only" steps? I'm comfortable disassembling the springs and lapping the valves with compound but is there something that the generous folks on YouTube leave out of their vids? Any suggestions on good valves to buy?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:28 am    Post subject: heads Reply with quote

Singerdude take your time , install new lapped in valves clean everything and reassemble carefully.Torque to spec rockers etc heads and go have fun.Stay away from the shop.Bad work over there.We have a shopm in my small town like that.Absoulte hacks and they are packed?!?!?!?
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