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ataraxia
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 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:58 am Post subject: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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I couldn't find where anyone has done a direct side by side comparison for the Type 3 of these two brake kits so I'm starting this thread - hopefully, it'll answer questions and provide information.
This thread aims to provide information about CSP vs. Airkewld front disc brake kits in 5 x 205 bolt pattern. I'll be updating it over time or in response to questions, so feel free to ask away!
CSP front disc brake on the left, Airkewld front disc brake on the right.
There are quite a few differences between the two kits and I'll do what I can to identify them as this thread evolves and document below.
CSP
What's in the box:
* Rotor/hub assembly with pre-installed bearing races
* Instructions with photos for orientation and confirmation of correct installation (also online as a web page or .pdf download)
* Exploded view of how the parts go together
* Brake pads
* 48mm dia. GM floating type caliper (with dust seals) made in France
* Blister card of hardware/tools
* Bearings and seals on a separate blister card (not with hardware)
* Stainless steel bearing hub caps
* Rubber brake hoses and hose end adapters for the calipers
What's NOT in the box:
* Lug nuts not included (I used M14 R12 ball seat from Otis LA)
Specifics:
* Uses stock drum spindles with zero modifications
* 14mm stud diameter, uses R12 ball seat lug nut
* 30mm stud length (measured from the face of the hub to the end of the stud)
* Caliper bracket is steel, smooth on all sides and indicates "L" and "R" on the bracket - approximately 10mm thick
* Each caliper uses one 1mm spacer under each mounting hole between the caliper and bracket
* CSP specifically states that the spindle CANNOT be painted or powder coated on the mounting face of both the spindle and their bracket
* TUV certified
* Cannot be used on 14" wheels or early Type 3 slotted wheels, per enclosed instructions
* Adds approximately 10mm of track to each side
* Approximate weight per spindle: 32# (includes steering arm - without ball joints/tie rod end)
* CIP1 website, CSP instructions both show a backing plate/splash guard in the photos but it is NOT included with the kit
* A 19mm disc brake capable master cylinder made for the Type 3 is absolutely a minimum requirement for these brakes (per CSP) with rear drum brakes
* CSP strongly recommends use of this master cylinder with 4 wheel disc brake systems
Airkewld
What's in the box:
* Rotor/hub assembly
* No instructions were included in my box - Airkewld says they're now included (instructions online). Pictures for reference are on Airkewld Facebook link. Photos and written instructions don't match at the time of this post. Written instructions reference 12 photos, there are 11 on the Facebook link.
* Brake pads
* Wilwood DynaPro Single two piston calipers (1.38"/35.052mm diameter pistons)
* Bag of hardware - up to the user to know if they have the right hardware
* Wheel seals
* Zinc plated steel bearing hub caps
What's NOT in the box:
* No exploded view of parts assembly
* Bearings not included (optional)
* Brake hoses not included - hose end adapters are provided for the calipers
* Lug nuts not included (I used R12 ball seat lug nuts from Otis LA)
Specifics:
* Uses stock drum spindles with modifications per the instructions (see below)
* Available with 12mm or 14mm studs R12 ball seat lug nuts required (I recommend 14mm studs)
* 38mm stud length (measured from the face of the hub to the end of the stud)
* Caliper bracket is steel, has some rough edges and has no indication of "L" or "R" on the bracket - approximately 6mm thick (mine are 6.3mm thick with powder coating)
* Each caliper uses some combination of the provided spacer/washers. Mine required approximately 6mm of spacers to center the caliper on the rotor and 4mm on the back of the bracket to keep the bolt from touching the rotor when mounted. I went out and bought washers the same thickness as those provided by Airkewld (1.8-2.0mm thick) to center the caliper properly.
* Airkewld does not indicate that the caliper bracket and spindle must be mated bare - the online pictorial shows both caliper bracket and spindle painted/powder coated.
* No evidence of TUV certification from the website / packaging - Wilwood calipers have no dust seals so it's unlikely.
* Must use 15" wheels with this kit - no mention of the early Type 3 wheels, specifically (per website)
* Adds 'approximately 10mm' of track to each side (per website)
* Approximate weight per spindle: 29# (includes steering arm - without ball joints/tie rod end)
* "Although not absolutely necessary in order to maximize the potential of your new disc brakes it is recommended that a later model dual circuit brake master cylinder be fitted". (from Airkewld website)
*NOTE: As part of the preparation you'll need to drill out the threads in the spindle assembly where the steering knuckle attaches (upper slightly recessed holes in illustration "Brakes 1") You'll need a drill press and a 9mm titanium or cobalt drill bit. IT IS IMPORTANT that this be drilled straight- If you lack the equipment for this any machine shop should be able to do it quickly.
Edited information, added hyperlinks
I'll update with information as questions are answered
Last edited by ataraxia on Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:10 pm; edited 15 times in total |
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:37 am Post subject: |
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A couple of questions.
Are those both direct bolt on to drum brake spindles?
Are they both single piston calipers?
What is the 5 lug pattern of the AirKewld kit?
Just going off those 2 pics, the CSP kit looks like the better set up, due to the hardware used. Is this what you found when assembling them?
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t3kg
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
A couple of questions.
1. Are those both direct bolt on to drum brake spindles?
2. Are they both single piston calipers?
3. What is the 5 lug pattern of the AirKewld kit?
Just going off those 2 pics, the CSP kit looks like the better set up, due to the hardware used. 4. Is this what you found when assembling them? |
1. Yes -although the Airkewld kit requires the threads to be drilled out on both of the steering arm holes due to the bolt they use having a small shoulder that wouldn't otherwise clear the threads. You will only learn of this when you read the installation instructions on their website because they don't include instructions with the brake kit when they ship it to you.
2. The CSP is a floating single piston modified GM caliper. The Airkewld uses a Wilwood DynaPro Single caliper.
3. Not sure what you're asking - both are wide 5 bolt pattern, 5/205
4. The CSP kit was much easier to assemble - mostly due to pre-installed bearing races and better manufacturing tolerances (no stacking washers to properly space the caliper on the disc).
Clarified information
Last edited by ataraxia on Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
3. Not sure what you're asking - both are wide 5 bolt pattern, 5/205 |
I was meaning the "inner" 5 bolt pattern. Looks like a 4 3/4 on a 5 from the pics.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Tram
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
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What's the cost difference?
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
3. Not sure what you're asking - both are wide 5 bolt pattern, 5/205 |
I was meaning the "inner" 5 bolt pattern. Looks like a 4 3/4 on a 5 from the pics. |
I didn't measure that because that hardware holds the two halves together.
| Tram wrote: |
| What's the cost difference? |
The CSP kit is $250 more expensive but they include bearings, brake hoses, loctite and the overall kit is far easier to assemble. Well worth it, IMO.
I bought both kits on sale - CIP1 shipped free and 10% off. I paid for shipping with Airkewld.
Last edited by ataraxia on Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brent
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Do either of the calipers have dust seals?
The CSP caliper seems quite a bit larger, looks like the piston bore is quite larger. How do the pads compare in size?
And drilled rotors are lame...
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Brent wrote: |
Do either of the calipers have dust seals?
The CSP caliper seems quite a bit larger, looks like the piston bore is quite larger. How do the pads compare in size?
And drilled rotors are lame... |
The CSP have dust seals - I don't see anything on the Wilwood caliper.
The pads on the CSP kit are easily 50-75% larger.
Funny thing about the drilled rotors: The Wilwood pads only come into contact with maybe 60% of the total face so the holes drilled nearest to the center don't do anything. On a track car, I can see how drilled rotors would be of interest but on a 60HP ACVW, they're of no use.
A few other indirect 'lessons', if you will:
1. Meyle ball joints are garbage. I installed a new set when I first installed the Airkewld kit. The car didn't leave the garage. When I removed the Airkewld kit and installed the CSP kit, one of the ball joints gave up its threads. The nut wasn't cross threaded and it also wasn't tight, let alone over tight, so I'm not sure what happened. Given that sketchy experience, I removed them all and replaced them with Febi/Bilstein ball joints. I won't buy Meyle ball joints anymore.
2. The bearings that come with the CSP brake kit are made in China. They're all metal construction like the old German bearings (the Brazilian and Korean bearings I've seen have plastic in them) but one of them came apart pretty easily. I replaced them with NOS FAG bearings.
3. The studs on the Airkewld kit are 38mm long, the studs on the CSP kit are 30mm long. My hunch is that the stock hubcaps won't fit over the Airkewld studs without trimming. I've yet to qualify this hunch - but who the hell pays a premium price for something that requires a ton of work? Isn't that the point of paying the premium?
Airkewld brake kit uses a flat bracket with some rough edges:
CSP brake kit has a thicker/cleaner bracket:
Airkewld kit: Had to bore out the holes on the Wilwood calipers to get the bolts to fit:
Airkewld kit: Using 10 washers per spindle to properly space the calipers on the supplied brackets (this one pissed me off the most):
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Yabbadubbadoo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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What are the materials the brackets are made of on each kit? It appears the hub on both kits are alloy right? The large circular wheel stud flange - you wouldn't happen to know the thickness of that metal? I was seriously looking to buy the CSP kit here in AUS but I had doubts whether my engineer would pass it for registration. I have no doubt they are good quality but we have a mile of red tape to go through to get things legally registered here in AUS.
Eventually I got a set made in Australia that's quite different on the caliper bracket. It's a two piece caliper bracket that manages to get the caliper position more inward. Overall we ended up with 10mm narrower wheel track. Only down side is that the whole hub assembly, caliper and all the brackets are steel so it's quite heavy. I went this route more for getting an engineers roadworthy certificate than anyghing else. I did like the CSP kit though but the engineers are quite fussy here about using calipers that have passed Australian design rules (ADR) certification and the Pistons had to have dust boots so the Wilwoods at the time I saw the Airkewl kit was also questionable if they'd get passed.
Anyhow I ended up with a very heavy brake setup that has large single piston calipers (from a Mazda van sold in Australia I believe) and they bring the wheel track in 10mm each side.
At some point down the track I may get on the lathe and turn up some alloy hubs and bolt flanges for mine to lighten up the unsprung weight but for now I'd rather keep it steel so I get less hassle getting it registered. Damn regulating Authorities make it so hard for us to modify cars.
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Yabbadubbadoo wrote: |
What are the materials the brackets are made of on each kit? It appears the hub on both kits are alloy right? The large circular wheel stud flange - you wouldn't happen to know the thickness of that metal? I was seriously looking to buy the CSP kit here in AUS but I had doubts whether my engineer would pass it for registration. I have no doubt they are good quality but we have a mile of red tape to go through to get things legally registered here in AUS.
Eventually I got a set made in Australia that's quite different on the caliper bracket. It's a two piece caliper bracket that manages to get the caliper position more inward. Overall we ended up with 10mm narrower wheel track. Only down side is that the whole hub assembly, caliper and all the brackets are steel so it's quite heavy. I went this route more for getting an engineers roadworthy certificate than anyghing else. I did like the CSP kit though but the engineers are quite fussy here about using calipers that have passed Australian design rules (ADR) certification and the Pistons had to have dust boots so the Wilwoods at the time I saw the Airkewl kit was also questionable if they'd get passed.
Anyhow I ended up with a very heavy brake setup that has large single piston calipers (from a Mazda van sold in Australia I believe) and they bring the wheel track in 10mm each side.
At some point down the track I may get on the lathe and turn up some alloy hubs and bolt flanges for mine to lighten up the unsprung weight but for now I'd rather keep it steel so I get less hassle getting it registered. Damn regulating Authorities make it so hard for us to modify cars. |
Airkewld :
Bracket is steel and 6.3mm thick with paint
Alloy hub
Wilwood DynaPro Single caliper
CSP:
Bracket is steel (magnetic) and is much thicker than the Airkewld bracket
I'll have to wait until I take the front wheel off the car to get to the CSP thickness unless someone else has one they can measure
Alloy hub
GM floating caliper, made in France
The Airkewld kit is on my bench getting disassembled so that I can take dimensions and get a proper bracket machined to eliminate the '10 washers per spindle' approach.
I would think that the CSP kit stands a far better chance of being approved in Australia - just based on what I've seen of its construction. Might also help that it's TUV approved in the EU.
I prefer alloy vs. steel since everything starts rusting as soon as I take it out of the box. That's one thing I miss about when I used to live in California - things would last years before surface rust would develop (if at all).
EDIT: Clarified post details
Last edited by ataraxia on Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:00 am; edited 3 times in total |
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gregson1
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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I received my CSP early Type 3 front brake kit late this past week. I ordered them direct from CSP in Germany because CIP was out of stock. They gave me an excellent price to help offset shipping costs. EURO exchange rate is still favorable, too, so I ended up saving some money on the entry price.
I'm not happy with the way they package their stuff:
CSP used a blister pack for the caliper brackets and hardware. The caliper brackets are heavy and have relatively sharp edges, so they cut right though the blister plastic during shipping. One of the long caliper mounting bolts also escaped the blister pack and was trapped under the loose caliper brackets, but miraculously no damage was done to the bolt threads.
The calipers shifted in their box and crushed and tore a big hole in the box containing the brake pads. Again, everything looks fine.
The bearings and wheel seals were blister packed to a small card inside the rotor boxes. The brake rotors also shifted and pinned the wheel seals. Damage was cosmetic.
Please publish the FAG wheel bearing part numbers. I don't think I'll need them right away, but if I do I'll want to be able to source quality replacements.
Have you been able to cross reference the wheel seals? I'm coming up empty.
All this BS aside, I was doing pretty well with everything until I stumbled onto Section 3.3 Wheels on Page 7 of the installation document. Apparently, the early 'slotted Type 3 steel wheels' are incompatible.
Guess what I have on my car? |
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t3kg
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
I received my CSP early Type 3 front brake kit late this past week. I ordered them direct from CSP in Germany because CIP was out of stock. They gave me an excellent price to help offset shipping costs. EURO exchange rate is still favorable, too, so I ended up saving some money on the entry price.
I'm not happy with the way they package their stuff:
CSP used a blister pack for the caliper brackets and hardware. The caliper brackets are heavy and have relatively sharp edges, so they cut right though the blister plastic during shipping. One of the long caliper mounting bolts also escaped the blister pack and was trapped under the loose caliper brackets, but miraculously no damage was done to the bolt threads.
The calipers shifted in their box and crushed and tore a big hole in the box containing the brake pads. Again, everything looks fine.
The bearings and wheel seals were blister packed to a small card inside the rotor boxes. The brake rotors also shifted and pinned the wheel seals. Damage was cosmetic.
Please publish the FAG wheel bearing part numbers. I don't think I'll need them right away, but if I do I'll want to be able to source quality replacements.
Have you been able to cross reference the wheel seals? I'm coming up empty.
All this BS aside, I was doing pretty well with everything until I stumbled onto Section 3.3 Wheels on Page 7 of the installation document. Apparently, the early 'slotted Type 3 steel wheels' are incompatible.
Guess what I have on my car? |
Odd that you had so many issues with packaging. Everything in my kit was clean and in place when I got it - traveled from Germany to Canada, then to Illinois. The Airkewld kit was a giant f'ing mess when it arrived and it only traveled from Arizona.
I'm using Timken bearings (SET4 - you can get them on Amazon) going forward...the FAG bearings came out of my stash of parts - the only way I'd get numbers off of them now is to remove them from the car. Boxes are gone.
I'm almost positive that the seals are Type 1. I got the same seals in both brake kits. I couldn't get them to work in the Airkewld kit so I used Type 3 seals and they fit just fine.
That sucks about the wheels...I didn't catch that - I'm using the 64 / 65 wheels. I bet the welds on the back interfere with the caliper. Both brake kits are tight on space on the back side.
Last edited by ataraxia on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tram
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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So space them a bit- just do the same front and rear. The studs on the disc setup should be long enough.
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| So space them a bit- just do the same front and rear. The studs on the disc setup should be long enough. |
I bet they might just fit but they can't say they'll fit if they had any issues with a sample wheel. The studs are plenty long enough and a spacer might work.
The CSP kit will need M14 R12 ball seat lug nuts. I bought mine from www.otisincla.com |
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gregson1
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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The track is already increased 10.5mm per side by the CSP Kit, so I'm not jazzed about doing anything to widen it further. Also, I really don't like wheel spacers.
I have a set of 5 non-slotted Type 3 stock steel wheels and if they clean up nicely, then I have a good,workaround. My car is an Oct '63 car, so it could have shipped with either style of wheel originally. Not a deal breaker--but definitely annoying.
Lug nuts don't ship with the CSP Kit, so add those to the shopping list.
I'm really not sure if a 19mm '67 and later ATE master cylinder is a solid option, even if retaining the stock rear drum brakes. CSP recommends their 20.6mm master cylinder as a separate purchase, of course, and I'm sure this is a must if going with 4 wheel disk brakes. |
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
The track is already increased 10.5mm per side by the CSP Kit, so I'm not jazzed about doing anything to widen it further. Also, I really don't like wheel spacers.
I have a set of 5 non-slotted Type 3 stock steel wheels and if they clean up nicely, then I have a good,workaround. My car is an Oct '63 car, so it could have shipped with either style of wheel originally. Not a deal breaker--but definitely annoying.
Lug nuts don't ship with the CSP Kit, so add those to the shopping list.
I'm really not sure if a 19mm '67 and later ATE master cylinder is a solid option, even if retaining the stock rear drum brakes. CSP recommends their 20.6mm master cylinder as a separate purchase, of course, and I'm sure this is a must if going with 4 wheel disk brakes. |
I know this probably shouldn't be mentioned here, but the situation Greg has might be the place for it, and that's using the AC Industries wide 5 bug kit, on modified T-3 disc spindles. That arrangement actually narrows the front track 1 inch (1/2" per side). That's what I used on my T-34, and I had plenty of room with the rotor, caliper, and hoses. But then I also went to the later T-3 master cylinder to feed it. Worked out just fine, and I had plenty of tire clearance in the wheel wells for the tall 165-80-15 tires.  By the time everything was all said and done, I had about 600-650 bucks into the whole set up. Yes, I could have had the OE wheel cylinders rebuilt, and begged Martin to sell me a set of NOS brake shoes for less than I spent, but I felt it was money well spent in the long run. Being able to use readily available Rabbit brake pads was a plus. 
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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M113
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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HAHAHAAHHAH
I did the same thing. Had the T3 CSP kit and slotted wheels then found out when I went to put the wheel on it was not going to work. SOOOOOO I made my own. Took 6 months to solve the damn slotted wheel with disk brakes vented rotors and 4 piston calipers. But I can say it can be done and no spacers required.
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ataraxia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| M113 wrote: |
HAHAHAAHHAH
I did the same thing. Had the T3 CSP kit and slotted wheels then found out when I went to put the wheel on it was not going to work. SOOOOOO I made my own. Took 6 months to solve the damn slotted wheel with disk brakes vented rotors and 4 piston calipers. But I can say it can be done and no spacers required.
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The piece of your design that makes the whole thing work: two piece caliper bracket.
You in the market to manufacture these for sale?  |
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