Dual port 1700 85.5 x 74

[spencerfvee]

hi frank. so you had a great time at the show .I know what your talking about walking can make me tired too . I have to see every thing at a show too. . glade to here your motor likes the 135 main jet . after reading your post I am going to rethink using the 137 main jet and keep the 135 main . you would not be live how well that air cleaner mod worked on my motor I have to now watch my rpms because. I don't want to go past 5,000 rpm well frank. I don't read my plugs . I clean the exhaust tips with brake clean then I drive on a long drive . I then wipe the inside of the exhaust tips with a white rag. right now. I am getting a nice real dark redish brown that's what I like to see. I know I should read the plugs but its so cold out here in ohio and bad weather is coming rain rain and I have to change the ball joints .so on the most part. I have to work on the frount end .I will read the plugs and let you know what I get . I also have to check the fuel pressure on my fuel pump I have seen 6 to 9 lbs out of a stock fuel pump . when I only need 2 1/2 to 3 lbs . I had a lot of fun driving my bug today on the free way. I could pass cars with all the power I need .and climb hills in 4th gear. I could keep up with other cars on the road .the way the motor is running . I am sure I can top out at 90 mph. but only went to 86 mph one time . I did not want to push my luck with the cops lol . how did your motor do did you pull hills . could you feal the power of the motor with the 135 main ? I am sending you the air jets. I made for you on my way to work take care spencerfvee

[Frank Bassman]

Hey your setup perhaps can handle more fuel due to the free-er exhaust and bigger valves... plugs will probably tell you for sure. Does that mallory distributor really make that much difference? I've never played with anything other than stock distributors and the 009, though that poor 009 was put in the parts bin about 4 years ago when I found out the wonder of the dual vacuum and single vacuum distributors... have been really lucky to build up an obscene stash of OG ones to play with. The one in there now was freshened up by me at some point and it works great its an 043 bosch SVDA and I love it.

The steepest hills here in Miami are the trash dumps, and we aren't allowed on those but there are some pathetic little bridges here I've gone up and down on, and the car does hold its speed better than before. It accelerates really nicely too considering the modes CC increase, but I'm sure the light flywheel and cam help immensely.

I just can't wait to see how it does with the larger 34 pict. It'll probably want a main in the vicinity of 137 or 140 and a 60 idle as is... and I'm expecting to have to open up the IAC jet too. What I will do on this empi carb I have (because it was cheap enough that I'm not afraid to experiment on it) is drill that hole on the choke. I have a feeling most, if not all, of the coughing on startup will be gone when I do. If it works on this carb and the German one needs it, then I'll do that to the german one.

I Tried putting the bigger-first-step choke cam on the empi carb and it just idled way to high for way too long. Still coughed a bit too which had me confused but I may just have gone from over-rich to over-lean with that change, so the conventional step cam went back in.

I will drive around a some more and see how the plugs color up. I also think I will go down one step on the idle jet to 55. Think I am running rich.

When I get a chance I will also clean the aircleaner. And come January, if I haven't found one local, I'll buy a (surely) cheap used air cleaner and modify it like you did. I like the fact that you get the best of both worlds; Stock look, velocity stack and less intake restriction. I personally do like the oil bath system, I feel like it does one hell of a job of cleaning the intake air in (carbs are always clean, not so much when I originally bought the car and had an aftermarket cleaner on) but of course they are designed to flow what a stock engine flows, and it is logical that they would be at their limits when revving higher than stock, or pulling more air through them. Another thing I like about the stock mod for the cleaner is that if you run your vent from the crankcase to the air cleaner like stock, that element that you put in filters some of the crap blow-by that is otherwise sucked into the motor. So perhaps the cleaner gets dirty sooner but the carbs stay cleaner longer, and I would think that is a good thing.

What model element did you use in yours? Is it flexible enough to take on the shape of the shell?

And about the air jets, thanks Spencer I will experiment with them as I go. Its too bad the aftermaket doesn't sell them for stock carbs, though I do concede that there are a limited number of nutjobs like us who like tinkering with the 34 Pict

-Frank

[Rome]

Good going with the '67 air cleaner modifications, spencer! I have some ideas to use a '67 air cleaner mounted centrally for a dual-throat carb application... will be a winter project.

[spencerfvee]

hi frank the air cleaner I used is 3 1/4 inches high and 8 inches long when its in my vw air cleaner . its a K&N brand but there are a lot of knock offs that will work too .I am also going to try the bigger air jets . maybe this year winter is coming and I don't drive the bug on the salted streets .I am like you frank all ways trying new things .I want to see how much power I can get out of a 1600cc motor with a stock 34 pict carb. that's more fun than putting a set of weber carbs on my motor . any one can do that . allso like you. I am passing on info to other vw guys that only want a stock carb and want the most power out of there motors . every vw show I go to there are all ways more vw bugs with stock carbs on them. than big motors with dual carbs on them as for the Mallory dizy I like the way I can set the Mallory up for any motor I build the Mallory is to me one of the best dizys ever made for a vw . I have a key and can set the Mallory up with 14 degs intal 32v degs total or even 16 degs intal or 18 degs intal when a motor has a big cam big valves the more intal realy helps the motor iidle smother because I have a mild cam and big valve heads I went with the 14degs intal it realy worked on my motor .I cant do that with a stock dizy or 009 or my auto stick dizy I tried and it does not work that well as a Mallory does that's what works for me frank I have run MSD dizys and vertex mags on my race cars over the years. but I allways went back to a Mallory dizy .nice to hear that your bug runs a lot better with the bigger jet makes it more fun to drive got to go the browns are playing got to see how bad they get beat again .there having a bad year lol spencerfvee

[Frank Bassman]

Perfect with those dimensions I should be able to get something that works! I will add that to my memory bank.

Today I stepped down the idle jet from 60 to 55, and re adjusted the volume screw. Here are some observations:

With the 60 idle jet I was at 2.5 turns from fully closed.

With the 55 idle the engine was happiest at barely over three turns from closed.

I just wanted to give the smaller idle a chance.

I don't have a flat spot and the engine accelerates very smoothly. I'm liking this.

Also went ahead and stuck the 75 z air in there.


But here is where it gets interesting.

Today I went downstairs to my car, drill in hand and determined to drill a hole in the choke plate of about 6mm. (Starting small to err on the side of caution).

So I took off the top of the carb and looked inside.
The float bowl was almost empty. Well, it was low enough that the float wasn't floating.

So of course the first assumption is, bad pump. But there is no gas in the oil. And it does fill the carb up, because if I crank without starting (I have a coil kill switch that lets me do this easily) the bowl gets to its proper level. So this theory seems unlikely.

Next thought, "shit" empi carb is leaking or something.

It is dry on the outside.

Ok so then I thought perhaps it was a sticking needle valve.
But how could this be it if the car ran fine when parked?

By the way after I parked this morning the car was off for about 2 hours and I didnt turn it back on immediately before opening the carb up, so the bowl must have become empty while the car was off

OR

It was not full when I was reversing the car into its parking space. But if that was the case, then the car surely wouldn't have been running at that moment or would it?

So after I closed up the carb I cranked with a sephyrhills bottle cap (big jug cap) on the carb throat to force the carb to fill up and started the car. Warmed it up adjusted for new jet let it idle 10 minutes and then turned it off to check the float level. It was fine and dandy.

Turn the car back on let it rev higher (2000 rpm for a minute) and turn off.

Check float and it was fine again!

Could the bowl empying out possibly be caused by the dreaded vapor lock hence why it happens intermittently? I don't believe Im running hot, I can always keep my fingers on the dipstick.

What do you guys think?

-Frank

(p.s no hole shall be placeth on the choke plateth until the now obvious fuel starvation issue is resolved. I have to find a fuel pressure gauge somewhere...)

[[email protected]]

If the float is emptying, you absolutely need to figure out why.

It's either leaking through a crack into the intake, or externally.

A second and common problem is siphoning from a clogged idle air bleed. This is where the air for the idle circuit comes from, mixing with fuel from the idle jet.

Remember, if the engine "likes" more timing than normal, the A/F is too rich. When it's right the best timing will be in the 28-30 BTDC range full advance (hose off).
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[spencerfvee]

hi frank I run ito the same thing . when my motor set over night heres my two cents after talking to my friend that works for BP he drives a gas truck for BP he says that older cars like mine have a vent in the carb to the out side air . are gas has 15% alcohol in the gas. he say the alcohol is evaporating into the air .well I am not sure if hes right but its food for thought .I do know my friends that run race cars with alcohol carbs. its dry in the bowl the next day. frank when you drive the car does it feal like your running out of fuel .if you are the car would bog out at 4,000 rpm and fall on its butt if its not doing that then I think your ok best to check the fuel presser to be sure here in ohio there pushing to do away with alcohol in are gas they found out its no good for the air and it drives corn up on pricing . to were food cost more . its real bad on rubber hose it can make a rubber holes close from swelling you might want to check your rubber hose . I will chang back to a 55 idle jet and try a 80 air jet this week end .its going to be 55 out sat and sunday spencerfvee quote="Frank Bassman"]Perfect with those dimensions I should be able to get something that works! I will add that to my memory bank.

Today I stepped down the idle jet from 60 to 55, and re adjusted the volume screw. Here are some observations:

With the 60 idle jet I was at 2.5 turns from fully closed.

With the 55 idle the engine was happiest at barely over three turns from closed.

I just wanted to give the smaller idle a chance.

I don't have a flat spot and the engine accelerates very smoothly. I'm liking this.

Also went ahead and stuck the 75 z air in there.


But here is where it gets interesting.

Today I went downstairs to my car, drill in hand and determined to drill a hole in the choke plate of about 6mm. (Starting small to err on the side of caution).

So I took off the top of the carb and looked inside.
The float bowl was almost empty. Well, it was low enough that the float wasn't floating.

So of course the first assumption is, bad pump. But there is no gas in the oil. And it does fill the carb up, because if I crank without starting (I have a coil kill switch that lets me do this easily) the bowl gets to its proper level. So this theory seems unlikely.

Next thought, "shit" empi carb is leaking or something.

It is dry on the outside.

Ok so then I thought perhaps it was a sticking needle valve.
But how could this be it if the car ran fine when parked?

By the way after I parked this morning the car was off for about 2 hours and I didnt turn it back on immediately before opening the carb up, so the bowl must have become empty while the car was off

OR

It was not full when I was reversing the car into its parking space. But if that was the case, then the car surely wouldn't have been running at that moment or would it?

So after I closed up the carb I cranked with a sephyrhills bottle cap (big jug cap) on the carb throat to force the carb to fill up and started the car. Warmed it up adjusted for new jet let it idle 10 minutes and then turned it off to check the float level. It was fine and dandy.

Turn the car back on let it rev higher (2000 rpm for a minute) and turn off.

Check float and it was fine again!

Could the bowl empying out possibly be caused by the dreaded vapor lock hence why it happens intermittently? I don't believe Im running hot, I can always keep my fingers on the dipstick.

What do you guys think?

-Frank

(p.s no hole shall be placeth on the choke plateth until the now obvious fuel starvation issue is resolved. I have to find a fuel pressure gauge somewhere...)[/quote]

[[email protected]]

sometimes in frustrating cases, you can put some food coloring into the float bowl, and it can make it easier to ID where it's leaking out.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

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[spencerfvee]

frank if I was you I would take the carb off of the motor and take the top off fill the bowl with gas put it on a stand or in a vice and let it stand and see if it is leaking. you can see any leaks better that way. then when the carbs on the motor I don't realy care for 34 pict EMPI carbs spencerfvee

[Frank Bassman]

This is EXTREMELY good information, thank you John and Spencer!

The idle air bleed is clean as a whistle, I blew the carb out with compressed air and brakleen recently. The whole carb is impeccable actually.

But I'm liking that dye idea.

You know, let me say something interesting regarding the E10 Bull$h$%^&.

I was drawing the same conclusion you did Spencer, and here is why.
When I was running the other motor that I rebuilt before this one, (1600) I was running pure gas, REC90, "boating" stuff because I wanted to confirm higher mpg, etc.

Well, it turns out that in all my reading on the ethanol situation, I found exactly what you are saying spencer:

Eats rubber lines
Likes to absorb water
E10 has less energy content than pure gas -> less efficiency

AAAAND

E10 has a lower boiling point than does regular gas.

So, it is more likely to boil and evaporate than was the good ol' stuff. Which explains all the threads on vapor lock we see here nowadays.


Yea, I have strong sentiments about the whole ethanol in gas situation. It just seems like way too perfect of a plan, that adding ethanol to gas, which reduces efficiency for the motor, reduces emissions AND promotes our corn industry.

Because of course, now you have to fuel up more, and end up burning more gas anyway. Where is the "good for the environment" part left standing if you have to now put more gas to travel the same distance?
I don't buy it. But that's a lengthy discussion with multiple dedicated threads so there it will stay.


Anyway, I remember when I used ethanol free gas, these episodes of hard starting would not happen. Started putting ethanol containing gas and they would happen periodically.

Perhaps this starting issue is more a heat soak issue than anything. So I was thinking of getting a phenolic spacer for the 34 Pict. But I can't imagine anyone makes one for the 34 pict. I will do a search I guess. It is logical that this motor runs hotter than the last, being slightly higher in CR and displacement. So if the evaporation theory is right this could explain why I see this more on this motor.

For now, I will try to cut out some gaskets and stack them between the carb and the manifold in an effort to insulate the carb a bit more, though I can't imagine it will do much good. (Worth a shot, its a quick $0 test right?)

More to come.

Spencer, I really wish they got rid of that ridiculous ethanol crap in your state, and in the entire US for that matter!

I'm glad to see you and I have observed similar things. It'll be easier to solve the problem this way.

-Frank

[spencerfvee]

hi frank corn has gone up to a all time record. because of ethanol farms .7 of are congressmen in DC own ethanol farms .these fools wanted to pass a law that would mandate 20% ethanol in the gas .that would be the death of all old cars because they just would not run on 20% ethanol .these congressmen are making big big money off of these ethanol farms .and they don't care about what damage it does to older cars. just so they line there pockets with money .greed greed runs the USA .then you have pop that uses corn sugar it also drives the cost of corn up. the USA used to be the biggest importer of corn to the world . not any more. it for the most part stays in the USA . ok lol hope you find out whats wrong with your carb my self I don't think it has a leak .the only time I see a 34 pict leak is when the fuel shut off valve .does not work . this week end I wil do testing on my motor with air jets and do a plug reading for you take care spencerfvee

[spencerfvee]

hi frank just got done rejetting my 34 pict carb its a heat wave today 48 degs out lol no wind . well I messed up when I thionk I know every thing about a 34pict carb I find out I don't know crap. about a 34 pict carb lol .I was working with two carbs . the empi carb had a 70z air jet. when I took off the empi carb and put the bocar carb on .I thought it had a 70z air jet .so I used a 135 main jet .I did pull the spark plug out for a reading it was running rich . I wanted to try a 80 air jet. when I got the top off of the carb I saw the float all the way down . like I told you it would be .see photo .that's what alcohol does .when mixed with gas bad bad .I found out I was using a 60z air jet on the bocar carb . with a 135 main jet and the 60 air jet that was = to running a 150 main jet . I put a 75z air jet in .took it for a drive .with the 75z air jet and the 135 main jet it is now = to running a 135 main jet . remember a air jet can make a motor run rich or run lean . I took it on the free way. it woke the motor up big time .I was shifting at 5,000 rpm on a flat free way road. I reached to a speed of over 90 mph it was at 4,400 rpms at 90mph . I reached 4,900 rpms .this was on a free way that has a speed limit of 75 mpg . cars were passing me at 90 mph I have hit on the right jetting frank .it runs great .I don't speed like I did on the free way all the time .I took a chance of getting a ticket. not a smart thing to do . well frank what did you find out about your carb ? did you jet it ? have not herd from you about your motor .. I had a great day . I bought a set of 48 IDA carbs that a guy had for 40 years they are like NOS there made in Italy there going on a ralley 1600cc motor I am building for my bug spencerfvee[im

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[Frank Bassman]

Hey Spencer! I left it with the 135 main jet for now, I'm driving it around and seeing how mpg does. Have not taken the plugs out but I will do so in the next days and post a picture. Should look about the same. It runs really nice, I feel perhaps it is being a bit restricted with the stock air cleaner. So I'm digging around to see where I put an old paper air cleaner that I'll throw on just to see the difference. (Old but not dirty.) I'll revert back to the stock one after. If it makes a huge difference (which I expect it will be a noticeable one) I will try to source a stock one and modify it like you did. There's a show in January by me that has a swap... I'm sure I'll find something. Hopefully a '68 cleaner. ( I like the look of that year.)

I've been swamped with school work and next week is finals week at my university so I've been holding off from doing much to the car. Except for yesterday. Record rainfall in Miami, and my area in Kendall became flooded. Flooded to the point where there were cars sitting on the street stalled. I had to pull some stunts to get home... water was about a foot up my door. My driver side became a pool, my passenger side did better. I already found the leak though so I'll get to it when I can. Stupid PO ran the cables through the old bakelite heat conduit and filled it with foam. It was a trickle leak but it was enough to fill my footwell with water. I have to say I'm really impressed with the sheer determination these cars have...I was driving past stalled cars and even a couple of SUV's, everyone looked so perplexed when they saw me chugging along. (it was even more funny that the car was super quiet since the muffler was completely submerged!)

Got on sidewalks and even drove against traffic. Had to. Everyone else was freaking out and sitting still in the water. No one knew what to do. Meanwhile I'm driving on medians through people's flooded front yards... all in an effort to get home. And my neighborhood was so flooded too I had to park my car in front of the management office where the ground was high... because my muffler was underwater in my parking spot! Then came the chore of draining the car.... one chinese plastic container-full of water at a time... Thankfully the water went down and today the car is drying. It really really was a good idea to bedliner the new floors thoroughly and just run rubber mats... made cleaning a snap!

Anyway, Spencer, I think found someone that makes phenolic spacers for our 34 Picts. This may help our low float situation by not heating the carb to the point of the gas slowly evaporating!

Unfortunately I think they are WAY too spendy. Maybe it's just me. But I may give them a shot regardless.

http://www.evolveeng.com/automotive_parts/carburetor_heat_isolator.html

-Frank

[spencerfvee]

hi frank wow you got heavy rain . but the old bug made it I hate flooding we have back roads that flood I hit the water at 55mph and took a ride of my life . on the spacer that sounds like a lot of money to me if you get one let me know how it works .I bet I could make one .I can go to the summit racing store and see what they have that might work after x mass is over sounds like you like the 135 main jet that's in it now I know I do . I to am having a hard time getting the choke right too . I think I will drill mine to see if it helps spencerfvee.....

[Frank Bassman]

Well, update on the jetting. First, I stripped a plug thread, but it is repaired now. (Thanks to Aircooled.net, that timesert kit really came in handy.)

As of now I am running the 135 main jet, with an 85 air correction jet, reamed out by Spencer. (Thank you man!)

I like the power I am getting, mainly I went to the 85 because my mileage went down to about 22 mpg combined, and I suspect it was just due to the larger main and higher pull through the carb. I'm as of now establishing if the 85 is helping offset that some.

As far as the rebuilt carbs go, I should be receiving them in the mail this Saturday from Tim. (Volkzbitz)

I cannot wait to put the carb with the 27 mm venturi in there! For starters, i will jet it 135 main, 60 idle, and 60 air correction. I don't think I will have any problems on the idle circuit with that idle, I am expecting some issues with the main. I may have to fatten it up but I have a 137, 140, 145 and some other jets to toy with.

As far as the aux fuel jet goes, I had two carbs, and one of them had one which looked a little bigger than the other, ever so slightly bigger. I believe that I read somewhere at some point that bus carbs had a SLIGHTLY larger aux idle jet. This jet apparently feeds the motor when it is idling, in conjunction with the mixture screw. I chose the bigger one of the two to put on the carb, seemed like the right thing to do.

Will update as I go.

-Frank

[spencerfvee]

hi frank sounds like you are getting the carb dialed in . I might try the 85 air jet my self .when I have time I am working on a other motor right now .we are having great weater here in ohio x mass its going to 60 degs out so I will drive my bug and check the MPG out great job cant wait to see how the bigger carb works out spencerfvee

[Frank Bassman]

Ok guys, I have some updates.

Last weekend I received the carbs back from Tim. Let me just say that he did an amazing job with them and I am very pleased. I will be shooting him a thank-you email soon. Very very good.

I installed the carb with the modestly enlarged vent (27 mm).

I do have to say that it made a HUGE, and I mean HUGE difference in the way the car runs. 1 mm doesn't seem like much but it is truly enough to make a difference. So much so I'm actually toying with the idea of sending another carb from my collection to get rebushed and enlarged, to 28 mm. But that's down the road.

Originally the carb was put in with a 140 main and 60 idle. But the gas mileage sucked and car ran very rich... I took it down to the 135 I had on the empi carb (which ran somewhat rich there.) and it seems that the car is running good now. It doesn't really stink of fuel, but mileage calculations will tell me a bit more as time goes by. (I've been driving it 5 days.)

Some observations:

With the 140 main the car did have more power than the empi but it seemed to be not very snappy.

With the 135 main the car became more snappy and peppy, and it does accelerate harder. (seat of the pants, but I'm sure it has more kick.)

This seems counterintuitive, but I do know both too lean and both too rich have performance implications (negative) so I think I found the happy medium. I'm running a 75 air correction jet, I may bump it a size up and a size down and see how it does. I think it will like an 80 air in there.

I wish I had an A/F meter, but that is very expensive. Heck I'm still hurting from the carb venture. One day I will buy the tools.

This is no racecar, but I do notice a pleasant difference in the way the car runs, and I couldn't be happier with this motor! More to come.

-Frank

[spencerfvee]

hi frank. great sounds like you got it dialed in . it seems like both are motors love a 135 main jet .I am going to get a carb and open up the venturi to a 27 and see what happens ..been busy with x mass . .now new years .are winter has been kind to us in ohio . real warm no snow yet .keep posting on your mileage happy new year to all. spencerfvee

[Frank Bassman]

Well I am back with an update on fuel economy. Not seeing the numbers I wish for but I am close.

On the highway I am seeing 26.5 mpg
Combined I get a solid 24-25.

City about the same. Running on E10.

Jetted 57.5 , 135 , 75 air. I am running a carb opened to a 27mm vent.

The jump from 1584 to 1699 isn't that great, and I used to run a 127.5 on the 1600 without a problem... Plugs looked clean always. But the motor responded nice for a 1600. I don't believe it ran lean either. I'm beginning to think perhaps the 135 is a tad rich for the 1700... Even though the plugs look clean. I mean they are protruded plugs so they stay quite clean regardless. (I have found.) I am going to go through this tankfull and then I will switch to. 132 main with the 60 air and see if it makes a difference. I will be keeping an eye on my oil temp gauge to see if any increase in engine temperature is apparent and reflected on the oil. I know, cylinder head temp gauge is better but I dont have a sender for it and quite frankly after my stripped spark plug fiasco I rather not put a sender there Will be back with my findings.

Spencer, do share your findings also! Hope your holidays were filled with good times and hopefully no indigestion!

-Frank

[spencerfvee]

hi frank its 15 degs out snow and cold cant do much driving at all I don't want salt on the car . its gong to be about may be for I get the bug out and drive it . remember frank going from a 135 main jet to a 132 main jet with the 75 air will work better. going to a 132 and using a 60 air jet will make it more richer than the 135 main with the 75 air it would be like using a 147 main with a 75 air jet . just my two cents spencerfvee