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Sand Rail Resurrection Project
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Icy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:44 pm    Post subject: Sand Rail Resurrection Project Reply with quote

Hi guys, I'm new to The Samba, and to VW in general. I have a buddy who recommended this site for help with my new project!

It is a custom caged dune buggy on a bug pan, with a VW bus transmission, and a 1600cc dual port motor. (As far as I know)

Here are some pics:

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This is quite a project- I've made a list of some things it needs:
- Brakes (master might be seized)
- motor needs a tune up/ rebuild (hasn't been run in a while- might also be seized)
- Wiring is chopped
- no shift linkages
- fuel lines, oil lines, gas tank is loose
- seats and any kind of safety harness
- New paint!

This may look rough, but it was a good deal, and the tires and wheels alone made it worth it for me. It's going to be a learning experience!

Any pointers, parts identification, or tips would be appreciated! Thanks guys!
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SvFalcons74
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like shit bud Wink
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gman3850
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it was me i would sell the bus box and put an normal bug trans in there so u can keep stock shift linkange without doing custom work, pluss youll put some money back in your wallet.

throw some rattle can on it to freshen up look and i would redo the brakes because it isnt that expensive to do so. if the motor runs, do a tune up and that should be fine.


all depends on what your budget and use for it is.

ps doesnt look like shit, just a rail in need of some tlc
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would keep the bus trans. Normally on a sand rail you have to do custom shift linkage anyways. Since you have what appears to be a stockish engine, the bus trans will let you go almost anywhere.
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63ziggy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

she can be a runner. depends on your thought process. get her mechanical and run the tires off her or start the strip down process with some fresh paint.

couple thoughts

keep the bus tranny. lot stronger than beetle. easy to modify tranny connection. there is an adapter to go bus to beetle pan/tunnel. or run rod on top. weld up new shift box on top of tunnel. guys do it all the time with lowered tranny bugs.or lastly, get 10 degree mount to stuff tranny nose into tunnel.

looks like generator. you will want to convert to alternator.

cv axles are missing.do you have them? looks like 4 lug rear axle stubs. you will need beetle cv's on axle stub side and bus cv's on tranny side. additionally, the axles lengths are different due to bus tranny width. beetle axles will not work. hopefully you have them to save source and head scratching.

update brake system. looks like brake master cylinder is for single circuit. you will want a dual circuit brake master cylinder.that way if blow a front lie, you still can lock rears.

drop you a solid metal rod section in the steering shaft at the cut joint to reassure strength in the steering shaft and weld up

also may consider a collapse-able section in steering shaft or add u-joints in shaft. that will allow shaft to collapse for safety purposes

maybe add some x bracing in the front open area from beam to dash

just some thoughts to share
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Icy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for all of the advice guys! To be honest, this is my first major project like this, and it is a little overwhelming looking at all that needs to be fixed.

I like the idea of using a stronger gearbox, but I do not have the axles. If I understand you correctly, the axles need to be modified to be bus splines on one end, bug splines on the other?

Brakes are very important to me! I believe the lines might be like they are because there are only rear brakes.

Ziggy, I like your ideas of frame strengthening and safety features, but I'd first like to get it running and braking for the most part.

As for tranny mods, I like the idea of a running a new shift rod on top of the tunnel, is there a build thread of someone doing this?

I really appreciate all of the help guys- I asked the mechanics at the shop I work at and they didn't know much about VWs.
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63ziggy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ICY

on axles and cv's

splines should not be an issue. it is the CV joint you use depending if tranny side or axle stub/wheel side

you can run beetle cv's at wheel and use the bus cv's at the tranny. no issue there.

unless you want to change out the wheel axle stubs for like Thing stubs. then can run bus or Thing cv's all around

beetle cv's are smaller diameter and have less articulation than a bus or thing cv

as far as axle itself, it is the length that is the issue.

standard beetle axles are too long because the bus tranny is wider than the beetle tranny.

there are several posts out there on topic. takes some weeding. not an expert, just know it is topic as my son and I were on similar project and set up.

hope this is little clearer
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before you buy anything concerning the axles, measure the diameter of both CV flanges (transmission & stub axle). As mentioned earlier, the bus CV is larger then the bugs. If the diameters are different (stub axle smaller), then you will need Bus and bug CVs. However if they are the same diameter, you will need bus CVs on each end of the axle. You will also need 15-5/8" aftermarket axles. This is the common size for a bus transmission in a bug chassis.

It is easy to get overwhelmed when you have many different tasks to perform on a project. I have found that you do not want to look at the whole project. Instead just focus on one area and forget the other ones. Like today I am just going to work on the brakes.
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Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
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Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of safety things that I see is the lack of triangulation in the frame, the other is the multiple sharp corners on the center console. I thought I'd point those out so you could address those as you rebuild.
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Icy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the specifications on the axles! This will help me a lot when I build it up! That's a good strategy- I think I'll start with getting the engine running, and then do brakes until the tranny is ready.

I have a friend with a spare motor and trans- bug- might swap em in cause he has bug axles too. I'll let you know! Think its a 60hp single port. It runs, unlike this engine, and would only need a gasket or two. Either way, I'll be using parts from it.

I'll keep you updated on progress!
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icy wrote:
Hi guys, I'm new to The Samba, and to VW in general. I have a buddy who recommended this site for help with my new project!

It is a custom caged dune buggy on a bug pan, with a VW bus transmission, and a 1600cc dual port motor. (As far as I know)

Here are some pics:

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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This is quite a project- I've made a list of some things it needs:
- Brakes (master might be seized)
- motor needs a tune up/ rebuild (hasn't been run in a while- might also be seized)
- Wiring is chopped
- no shift linkages
- fuel lines, oil lines, gas tank is loose
- seats and any kind of safety harness
- New paint!

This may look rough, but it was a good deal, and the tires and wheels alone made it worth it for me. It's going to be a learning experience!

Any pointers, parts identification, or tips would be appreciated! Thanks guys!



Definitely a "PROJECT". No big deal for someone who is experienced, a little tougher for a noob. But that's OK, you've already found us here and the knowledge of what to do and how to do it is all right here.

Let's begin with brakes and work our way through it from there.
- Pedal mount bracket is standard for a rail buggy. The ones like that made in the 1970s were fairly stout. The more recent ones made in China are of softer steel and thinner to boot. They have a poor reputation for bending. The way the bracket is just bolted to the sheet metal pan floor is also very weak. One panic stop could tear it loose from the floor or bend the floor. Not good. The mount should get some reinforcing to the side of the stouter metal tunnel. Don't do that until you have the seats mounted in the car so you can be sure the pedals are where you need them to be.

- Brake master can be expected to be bad with the reservoir gone and the hose open to the weather. If you need to replace it, I recommend installing a dual-circuit master for a 1968 or later Bug. At Autozone, they are about $18 plus a $6 or $7 core charge (you have an earlier unit, so you have to pay the core). I had trouble in recent times with replacements from a VW supply house that cost more. AZ replacement is good and lifetime warranty. Other big chain auto parts stores may be similar. "Buggy" master sold by VW shops is early VW Bus with a reservoir which threads right onto the master where the hose goes on the Bug one you have. For the late model dual master, a Volvo plastic dual reservoir fits right on. But for either the Bus or dual master, having the plastic reservoir sitting out in the sun will kill it in nothing flat. There are expensive metal reservoirs for the early Bus, but they have a rep for cheap leaky seals. A bolt-on sheet metal box (like say an ammo can) over the reservoir will protect it from the sun so it will last for years. The front brakes are deleted, which I strongly recommend against unless the car will only be used in actual sand dunes. Putting stock VW brakes back on it would be good. You don't need disc brakes and in fact, it would be good to reduce the effectiveness of the front brakes by installing rear brake wheel cylinders in front and front cylinders in back. I expect the rear wheel cylinders need replacing anyway due to the system having been left open. Brake fluid absorbs moisture out of the air and goes bad because of it, and it will all be contaminated and needs to be completely flushed out.

- The clutch pedal is laying down which says the cable is not hooked to the arm on the trans or to the pedal. It may be that the PO had not yet made a custom length cable for it. The typical way to make a cable is to connect the ends to the pedal and the arm on the trans, with a loop somewhere in the middle, (maybe next to the seat), then put u-bolt cable clamps on the 2 parts that overlap. Use at least 2 clamps on at least 4" of overlap. Then cutting the excess loop off is optional. There should be a flex tube beside the trans that the cable passes through called a "Bowden Tube". That should have a metal tube fastened securely to the frame at the front end for the flex tube to push against. So that metal tube is usually welded in place.

- Seats can be a wide variety of types, but many will not fit in the narrow space beside the tunnel. I suggest that if the car will sit outdoors, you use "poly" seats. Check Summit and Jeg's for those. Make sure you have plenty of headroom for bouncing around when you're sitting in the chosen seats. Fasten them securely to the car. Straight to the floor is OK, but use some sort of large washers or strips of 1/8" x 1" bar stock under the floor to keep the bolts from ripping out.

- For the trans, I'm torn as to which is better FOR YOU. For mild use, a stock Bug gear box, preferably 1969 to 1972, is just fine. The Bus 002 gear box that is in there is stronger and has better gear ratios for big tires and offroad hill climbing and slow crawling. In general, it's the better choice for an offroad buggy. But while the 002 is there and the mounts are partly done, you have issues with the axles and CVs, as well as the remaining strap over the front of the trans and the shifter linkage. Still not big issues and the strap should be there over the front of the trans if you decide to take it back to a Bug trans. You will also need to get the steel motor mounts for the Bug trans as well as a trans if you decide to go that way. Bug axles would then be a bolt-in no drama deal. If you go for the 002, using BUS CVs on the inner end of the axles with stock Bug axles and Bug outer CVs will work. But the CV stop shoulder on the both ends of the axles will need to be turned off on a lathe to accept the Type 2 CVs and allow the axles to "plunge" into the CVs to let the stock Bug axles to work. The alternative is to use Type 2 or 4 or Thing or Porsche 924/944 CVs with stub axles with Type 2 flanges (Thing or 944 stub axles work fine and are a bolt-in solution). Then use aftermarket axles made to length as recommended above.

- Shifter is EZ of you go back to Bug trans, for the 002, getting an adapter is a Mickey Mouse solution I don't recommend. It would be better to get a shifter mount box for a rail buggy and weld it on top of the tunnel, then cut a Bug shifter shaft to length using one of the shifter shaft adjuster ends and a Bug shift coupler. Then use a stock Bug or aftermarket shifter. Get the shifter and mount it to the shift box before you mount the shift box so you know where the lever will wind up.

The engine having been sitting without a carb and the manifold left open, I expect the pistons to be frozen and the valves may be rusted in place as well. Good chance the engine will need to come completely apart and expect to need pistons and cylinders for maybe a couple hundred $$ and a valve job, plus a gasket set to get it together in good running shape. If the carb is not with the car, a 34 PICT-3 will be needed at the least. This could lead you to other carb setups which will probably cost more $$, but maybe you could find a deal on some Kadron duals or a Holley/Weber Progressive carb and manifold(s). Air cleaner setup to recommend depends entirely on the carb, so we'll deal with that bridge when you get to it. The headers need the springs that keeps the collector on the primary tubes. They are available from VW shops. I recommend a muffler like a Thrush Turbo on a downturn collector tube instead of the open exhaust. Keeping rain out of the engine is a definite concern.

- The rear shocks look bent and need to be replaced I suggest KYB Gas-A-Just all around. DO NOT go for the EMPI cheap Chinese coilover shocks as shocks inside the springs are junk and the car does NOT need the springs.

- The gas tank should have steel straps (1/8" x 1.5" or pallet strapping tape) 2 underneath welded to the frame, and 2 over the top bolted to the frame, to keep it in place even if the car is crashed or flipped. Ahemmm - DON'T weld on the tank!!!

- That should keep you busy for a while and you can cross other issues like adding triangulation to the frame (which I strongly agree with), lights and electrical later. Give us a shout before you plunk down cash for seat belts too.
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Icy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, dustymojave- Thank you!!! I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I've been going over and over your post to hammer out a plan and parts list for the rail. That post was super helpful, and I'm excited to get to work!

I do actually have a carb for it, and it was covering the intake (although for how long I'm not sure). I'm attaching pictures of it, and I think it's missing a spring or two, but I cleaned it up and blew it out so it is movable now (WD-40!).

This week I'll be out of town, but hopefully next week I can really dig into the rail!

And DM, thanks again for the guidance- step-by-step instructions are as good as it gets! Very Happy

Also, thoughts on colors? I kinda like orange, or re-spraying the yellow?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What size is the exhaust? It looks like it 1 3/4", might be a bit big for any thing smaller then a 2L.
The front hoop [foot box area] looks like one of those kits they sell for building "roundy Round" cars in the back of "Stock Car Magazine"

Casey
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Icy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Build isn't dead, just taking time to get some of the parts. I'm starting with the big stuff, like getting a running engine, but I'm also looking for the best deal on brake parts.

Also- I think my carb is missing a spring on the side, but more importantly, the choke rubs on the inside of the barrel when it is closed about 3/4 of the way. Is there an adjustment for this?

I unloaded the rail off of the trailer, and built some canopies to cover it (save the tires!), and make for a nice spot to work on it.

Found this weird bearing thing, that keeps the steering axle? straight while turning, but it doesn't seem to move. Either it's seized, or never was supposed to move, idk. I attached some pics of it, it seems to be full of something, maybe decayed bushing material?

I might just throw some grease on it and be done. More updates to come.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a bronze bushing mounted in a steel housing rather than an actual bearing. If that's the case than it probably isn't supposed to move. Is there any more to it like a strap that goes over the top of it? Is that small hole on the side for a grease fitting or a mounting screw of some kind?

On the choke, I just pulled another 34 PICT-3 apart the other day and I noticed a couple of really thin washers on the choke shaft between the bore and the choke plate. Does yours have these washers?
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The other thing you could try is to loosen the two screws holding the choke plate slightly and try moving the shaft a bit to get the plate to seat in the bore better. Once you have it where you think it fits best hold it shut while you tighten the screws back up.

BTW: Yes, going by the pics above it looks like you're missing the main throttle return spring. They were included in the carb rebuild kits I bought so they are available. Just make sure to look for it when you pick up a rebuild kit if you haven't done so already.

I'm still kinda new to VW's myself so hopefully other more knowledgeable forum members around here might have some other ideas to try if those don't work.
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Link to my rail (re)build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=629493
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Icy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the carb info! I found the washers you were talking about, and with a little more WD-40, I should be good to go!

Small update- finally got some free time tonight, and ripped the wheels off to check out the brake condition. One of the drums in the rear is stuck due to a frozen castle nut, and with no axles, it just spins and I can't get the nut off. The other one was loose, so I got a look at the passenger side assembly.

Aside from being old and full of cob webs, everything seemed to be in its place. I'm going to replace the cylinders, but the pads looked fine, and no broken springs or missing linkages!

Any advice for getting that castle nut off? Maybe a big pipe wrench and a breaker bar?

I'm going to order some parts, and hopefully tomorrow I can pull the rest of the brake system apart.

I'll post pics as soon as there's better lighting!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This the way I do it when I need to get a hub off at pick a part, or pick a pull. I use motorcycle tie down straps, but if you have good non-stretchy rope, it will work also. I back out two of the lug bolts, then I hook the straps to each one. Then study which way the drum will try and turn, and hook the other ends of the straps to the frame in such a manner, that the drum can not turn. It has always worked for me, but there are two keys for success: 1st - What ever you use, must not stretch, 2nd - make sure that the ends that you attach to the frame are secure.

YOU DO NOT WANT A STRAP TO COME UNDONE AND HIT YOU IN THE FACE.
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73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
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Icy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Multi69s - I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I got my sledge back so hopefully that helps! Shocked I actually got some PB Blaster at the O'Reilly's (No Kroil), so I should be fine.

But here's a pretty big update, and the reason I haven't finished the brakes yet! Very Happy

I picked up an engine and transmission out of a Ghia, which the owner is dropping a V6 Subaru engine in. The engine runs, has a lot of new parts, and hasn't been rotting for how many years. I'm really excited to bolt these in, and while the old ones are out, I can paint the frame.

More updates to come, here are some pics!

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Let me know if you have any more info about these parts, not sure on their origin!
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trans is 69-72 Bug/Ghia. Should have 4.12: 1 ring and pinion. Should work fine. The axles probably need the CVs cleaned and re-greased before assembly.

The engine appears to be an early 1600. The heads are dual port. It has the early style oil cooler inside the fan shroud. That will work, but is not the desirable deal. But you could upgrade that later.

All of this should bolt right into your car.

Looks like a score.

To remove the axle nut...
It should have been torqued to 215+ foot lbs. So it's gonna be tight. I use a 3/4" breaker bar with a 2-1/2' section of pipe for a cheater on the 36mm nut. To hold the drum and axle from turning, I use a 3' long piece of 3" x 1/4" angle iron scrap that's drilled to fit 2 lugs and torch notched to clear the drum hub. Bolt the angle on snug positioned so the wrench is pushing towards the angle iron. That should get you enough to loosen the nut. If it really doesn't want to come off, get another nut and chisel that one off without damaging the axle threads.

One of the torque master tools is great for this job, but not everybody has one. When I put it back together, I like to use a tiny bit of anti-sieze on the threads to prevent the nut from rusting on.
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ICY,

Dusty's method is a better method then I described, but if you do not have a torch handy, here is another way of holding the wheel from turning. Like they say, a picture is worth a thousands words.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Like I mentioned previously, this the way I do it when I need to get a hub off at pick a part, or pick a pull. I use motorcycle tie down straps (mine are rated at 500lbs.), but if you have good non-stretchy rope, it will work also. Since you have wheels mounted, attach the straps to a hole in the wheel. Then study which way the drum will try and turn, and hook the other ends of the straps to the frame in such a manner, that the drum can not turn. If you use rope, put a rag in between the rope and wheel so that the wheel will not cut the rope.
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