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Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible?
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hillmotorsports
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

I really hate to burst your bubble but the "good humour man" is another of those myths like miltary intelligence and happily married.....
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Quoting Macleod Willy
"Service Ontario told me that I could not change the ownership. If it started as a 58 VW then its always a 58 VW".



Below is information I found regarding changing information on vehicle ownership's in Ontario. Notice there is an option to change "body type" so it appears an ownership CAN be changed when the original body is removed and a new, different body is installed. That brings its own list of issues as, IF it is titled as a dune buggy, it seems insurance companies want nothing to do with it. I have spoken to several street driven, fiberglass buggy owners and one showed me his ownership where the vehicle description is listed a Volkswagen DB (for "dune buggy"). Others never bothered to change their ownerships and are just running around with regular Beetle ownership's that don't reflect the body change. My problem with not titling the car correctly is that it can (possibly) result in charges of fraud. It would be stressful enough being subjected to one of those "GTA long weekend safety blitzes" where the MOE, MTO, OPP, and local Police all participate, just in a buggy alone .... I'd bet there's a chance of a buggy being instantly impounded if "Beetle" or "Karmann Ghia" showed up on an ownership of something that was clearly neither. One other thing I have found, not everyone at Service Ontario knows everything about everything Confused


How can I change the address or vehicle information on my vehicle permit?
Change your address
You can change your address on a vehicle permit online or at a ServiceOntario centre.
If you change your address online, you need to pick up your updated vehicle permit at any ServiceOntario location. You must bring your old permit. If you do not have your old one, or need a replacement, there is a $10 fee.
Update the address on your vehicle permit online.
Visit a ServiceOntario centre
Change your information
You will need to update your vehicle permit at a ServiceOntario centre within 6 days of changing your vehicle’s:
• colour
• body type
• fuel type (power)
• number of cylinders
• registered gross weight
• make
• model
• year
• odometer information, or
• vehicle identification number.
Bring your current vehicle permit and 1 of the following documents (not required if you are only changing your odometer information):
• new vehicle information statement
• original manufacturer's invoice
• bill/certificate of sale from original dealer
• original certificate of title/origin
• statement from a vehicle dealer on company letterhead explaining the difference, or
• original vehicle manufacturer's warranty.
Complete an application for registration form (available at the centre) indicating the changes. There is no fee for this service.
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manxbugguy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

So, this update is from last week. I've been too busy to try other insurers.

For those who have obtained coverage recently, please post your experiences.

So far...
Lant/Haggerty - underwriting changed in 2014 - no longer insure buggys - grandfathered policies are ok.

Zehrs/Reeds - never did insure "buggy-esk" vehicles

State Farm - used to insure, but since they were bought out by Desjardins, no longer have a product for this vehicle

The Personal - closest I've gotten however, a buggy is too drastically modified and they would not cover the vehicle. Kind of a weird explanation - something to do with a 58 pan with a 67 body (didn't even mention the 71 engine).

I'll keep on making calls as time permits. Hopefully, I'll have some success or another member finds something and shares with the rest of us Wink

Also, any info re: safety inspections may help.
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

manxbugguy wrote:
So, this update is from last week. I've been too busy to try other insurers.

For those who have obtained coverage recently, please post your experiences.

So far...
Lant/Haggerty - underwriting changed in 2014 - no longer insure buggys - grandfathered policies are ok.

Zehrs/Reeds - never did insure "buggy-esk" vehicles

State Farm - used to insure, but since they were bought out by Desjardins, no longer have a product for this vehicle

The Personal - closest I've gotten however, a buggy is too drastically modified and they would not cover the vehicle. Kind of a weird explanation - something to do with a 58 pan with a 67 body (didn't even mention the 71 engine).

I'll keep on making calls as time permits. Hopefully, I'll have some success or another member finds something and shares with the rest of us Wink

Also, any info re: safety inspections may help.






Very much appreciate the update ..... not what I wanted to read, but thanks just the same Smile
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MississaugaManx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

So I was too busy with work last year to even attempt to deal with this insurance issue and it looks like I may now have a really cool garage conversation piece.
How can this be possible?
Gonna have to find an old Chevy chop top before they are illegal!!!
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

MississaugaManx wrote:
So I was too busy with work last year to even attempt to deal with this insurance issue and it looks like I may now have a really cool garage conversation piece.
How can this be possible?
Gonna have to find an old Chevy chop top before they are illegal!!!




My wife got a form in the mail asking for info on her daily driver, stone stock, 4-door, 4-cyl Chevy sedan. One of the questions was "is the car modified or altered? Describe the changes." I have since heard of others getting the same form. My guess is that ALL regular insurance companies are heading towards an outright refusal to write a policy for a modified vehicle. I'm guessing this will put an end to modified true daily drivers, leaving a modified car owner the choice of either changing to Custom Car insurance (which doesn't generally allow daily driving), returning their vehicles back to stock, or fibbing on the form. I can see it now ... "You have headers and a Holley carb ... sorry, we don't insure modified vehicles". You'd better get that Chevy top chop sooner than later, assuming it isn't already too late. As for my Manx clone ... my intent now is to get it running, steering and stopping then sell it as an off-road toy with its Karmann Ghia ownership.
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Dougy Dee
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Our Tuesday evening VW peeps GTG had a bit of a discussion last night regarding this issue.
The advice we got from an insurer/company was that what can be insured was covered under a mandate or agreement by the gov't dictating what can/cannot be insured. This probably has something to do with a US based/owned insurer operating in Canada. It seems dunebuggies were specifically mentioned as taboo.
Personally I think they are grouping buggies in with the UTV, ATV stuff that is insured under homeowners (up to a specific HP?). Sort of like outboard powered boats are covered up to 9.9HP but not 10HP under Homeowners...

Replica/Kit cars are OK. So, Cobras, Spyders and MGTD cars are OK.
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Dougy Dee wrote:
Our Tuesday evening VW peeps GTG had a bit of a discussion last night regarding this issue.
The advice we got from an insurer/company was that what can be insured was covered under a mandate or agreement by the gov't dictating what can/cannot be insured. This probably has something to do with a US based/owned insurer operating in Canada. It seems dunebuggies were specifically mentioned as taboo.
Personally I think they are grouping buggies in with the UTV, ATV stuff that is insured under homeowners (up to a specific HP?). Sort of like outboard powered boats are covered up to 9.9HP but not 10HP under Homeowners...

Replica/Kit cars are OK. So, Cobras, Spyders and MGTD cars are OK.




Hmmmm, so the trick may be to refrain from referring to them as "Dune Buggies" and start referring to them as "Modified VW's". I agree that the term "dune buggy" is too widely used to describe too many different vehicles, some street legal, some not.

I still need to change my ownership from Karmann Ghia to something that will accurately reflect what it has now become ..... I am going to attempt (as I understand other have done successfully) to change my ownership to "VW Karmann Ghia - Modified" and will definitely NOT mention the word "dune buggy" when I start my search for insurance coverage. I had initially all but given up on finding insurance, and decided to simply finish the car and sell it as an off-road toy ... lately however, I'm starting to get the feeling that correctly titling and finding insurance IS doable ... fingers crossed Wink
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porkey
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

fakemanx wrote:
Dougy Dee wrote:
Our Tuesday evening VW peeps GTG had a bit of a discussion last night regarding this issue.
The advice we got from an insurer/company was that what can be insured was covered under a mandate or agreement by the gov't dictating what can/cannot be insured. This probably has something to do with a US based/owned insurer operating in Canada. It seems dunebuggies were specifically mentioned as taboo.
Personally I think they are grouping buggies in with the UTV, ATV stuff that is insured under homeowners (up to a specific HP?). Sort of like outboard powered boats are covered up to 9.9HP but not 10HP under Homeowners...

Replica/Kit cars are OK. So, Cobras, Spyders and MGTD cars are OK.




Hmmmm, so the trick may be to refrain from referring to them as "Dune Buggies" and start referring to them as "Modified VW's". I agree that the term "dune buggy" is too widely used to describe too many different vehicles, some street legal, some not.

I still need to change my ownership from Karmann Ghia to something that will accurately reflect what it has now become ..... I am going to attempt (as I understand other have done successfully) to change my ownership to "VW Karmann Ghia - Modified" and will definitely NOT mention the word "dune buggy" when I start my search for insurance coverage. I had initially all but given up on finding insurance, and decided to simply finish the car and sell it as an off-road toy ... lately however, I'm starting to get the feeling that correctly titling and finding insurance IS doable ... fingers crossed Wink


Good luck with your search. I was thinking maybe kit car may be the key if current safety and emissions requirements wouldn't make it impossible.
Please post your findings...
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Good luck with your search. I was thinking maybe kit car may be the key if current safety and emissions requirements wouldn't make it impossible.
[/quote]


From what I understand, a Manx style (or similar) fiberglass buggy doesn't qualify (in Ontario) as a "kit car" due to the fact that Manx's aren't copies of anything ever made by an automobile manufacturer.
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EMPI70IMP
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Another buggy licensed and on the road in Ontario. I had my buggy safety'd, insured, and plated last Friday. Nine month of hard work and I'm now driving it. The insurance is a little pricey but I'll only drive it for 6 month a year. It works out to $151/month to drive it and $6/month when it's in storage. And I'm a 6 star driver with a perfect record. Kirby & Masson Insurance Ltd, 2378 Holly Ln, Ottawa, ON K1V 7P1, Phone:(613) 739-7562 ask for Kim.
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hopkin Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

EMPI70:

Nice Dune Buggy, maybe I'll see you driving around town Very Happy

I see you masked your license plates in the posted photos, but it looks like you have truck plates on it, if so, any reason?

I have a similar insurance issue with my Mexican Beetle, fortunately I'm grandfathered in with State Farm, but when I was thinking of shopping my insurance around I was refused for similar reasons as the Modified VW, but in my case the reason was 'Out of Market' vehicle.
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

EMPI701MP .... That's terrific news, thanks for posting. Looks great and should be a ton of fun. I've a ways to go before I'm ready for the road, but it's nice to know insurance is still possible in Ontario. If it isn't too much to ask, I'd love to know what your car is titled as and were you able to use the original VW Vehicle Identification Number or do you have an assigned number?

My car is still titled as a Karmann Ghia so if I need to get the ownership altered to correctly reflect what the car is now, I'd like to know which way I should go.

Thanks for any info you can post regarding how you handled things Smile
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EMPI70IMP
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

My title is... '1967 VW Bug". Insurance didn't care.... 'It's a modified VW beetle" is what I told them (a kit car). There is a mandate to insure all vehicles in Ontario. It's with "facility insurance". That's where you have to go when everyone else won't insure you,(a modified vehicle). I think that's why is a little pricey...I think it should be $500/yr. My wife and I pay $1150/year for both other vehicles. It's a group rate with TD (who doesn't insure modified). Just a side bar... My mechanic says all the safety standards are changing as of July 1, 2016 and he said I'm not sure I could safety this vehicle after July 1, so get them done....
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fakemanx
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

EMPI70IMP wrote:
My title is... '1967 VW Bug". Insurance didn't care.... 'It's a modified VW beetle" is what I told them (a kit car). There is a mandate to insure all vehicles in Ontario. It's with "facility insurance". That's where you have to go when everyone else won't insure you,(a modified vehicle). I think that's why is a little pricey...I think it should be $500/yr. My wife and I pay $1150/year for both other vehicles. It's a group rate with TD (who doesn't insure modified). Just a side bar... My mechanic says all the safety standards are changing as of July 1, 2016 and he said I'm not sure I could safety this vehicle after July 1, so get them done....



Thanks for all the added information, I really appreciate it Very Happy
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Dougy Dee
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

EMPI70IMP wrote:
My title is... '1967 VW Bug". Insurance didn't care.... 'It's a modified VW beetle" is what I told them (a kit car). There is a mandate to insure all vehicles in Ontario. It's with "facility insurance". That's where you have to go when everyone else won't insure you,(a modified vehicle). I think that's why is a little pricey...I think it should be $500/yr. My wife and I pay $1150/year for both other vehicles. It's a group rate with TD (who doesn't insure modified). Just a side bar... My mechanic says all the safety standards are changing as of July 1, 2016 and he said I'm not sure I could safety this vehicle after July 1, so get them done....


Did you show them pictures of what they are insuring?

I am not up to date on the current regulations but the 'mandate' from the Ontario Government doesn't/didn't include insuring ALL your vehicles. Just a primary unit. The Facility and Greypool arrangements were to spread the risks of insuring 'high risk' drivers around the industry.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

So I had the same issue.
7 years working on my buggy.
Ownership is in my name.
Certified
Plates

My insurance broker said no after receiving photos even though it is licenced as a beetle.

Called everyone listed Haggerty, Lant etc.

Finally walked into Allstate with a photo and said can you get me insurance on this.

No problem.

Go see Lucas at Allstate in Waterdown.
Convertibles, roll bars, kit car all good.
Just need an appraisal to be fully covered.

FYI under 100 a month.





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Glasser
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

I lost my insurance paper work so I called to get a new one emaild to me. I'm using Elite Insurance and just noticed they are out of Scarborough ON. They are not having any issues insuring me. 1 800 454 5592 if you want to check them out.
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porkey
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

Glasser wrote:
I lost my insurance paper work so I called to get a new one emaild to me. I'm using Elite Insurance and just noticed they are out of Scarborough ON. They are not having any issues insuring me. 1 800 454 5592 if you want to check them out.



Thanks for this Glasser!
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manxbugguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Canada Dune Buggy Insurance Is No Longer Possible? Reply with quote

vwlover123 wrote:
So I had the same issue.
7 years working on my buggy.
Ownership is in my name.
Certified
Plates

My insurance broker said no after receiving photos even though it is licenced as a beetle.

Called everyone listed Haggerty, Lant etc.

Finally walked into Allstate with a photo and said can you get me insurance on this.

No problem.

Go see Lucas at Allstate in Waterdown.
Convertibles, roll bars, kit car all good.
Just need an appraisal to be fully covered.

FYI under 100 a month.



Just called and spoke to Luke. He's putting a quote together for me. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Next step is to get it certified.

Any suggestions for a modified vehicle mechanic to certify our special vehicles around the Durham area?
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