| Author |
Message |
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32609
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
 |
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I ordered GoWesty's fuel rails.
I assembled GoWesty's fuel rails.
I have 10,000 miles of leak free motoring on the GoWesty fuel rails.
There isn't any problem with them at all.
They were made from quality materials.
The threads were not buggered or screwed up.
I know many here love to hate GoWesty.
IMHO ....... If one had a leak, one assembled them incorrectly. It's a simple threaded plumbing connection, no VooDoo, no magic, just use good assembly practices and all will be fine.
I find it far more comforting to be running these metal rails than running 30 year old plastic rails.
Dave |
Yeah, they are taper thread fittings installed with the supplied locktight thread sealant which should be ok. All I can think of that some people may be over tightening the fittings or perhaps installing them before the locktight is dry.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I ordered GoWesty's fuel rails.
I assembled GoWesty's fuel rails.
I have 10,000 miles of leak free motoring on the GoWesty fuel rails.
There isn't any problem with them at all.
They were made from quality materials.
The threads were not buggered or screwed up.
I know many here love to hate GoWesty.
IMHO ....... If one had a leak, one assembled them incorrectly. It's a simple threaded plumbing connection, no VooDoo, no magic, just use good assembly practices and all will be fine.
I find it far more comforting to be running these metal rails than running 30 year old plastic rails.
Dave |
problem is that if the holes were tapped too deep, the fitting may not seal it may bottom out before sealing. machining a tapered pipe thread is a slightly more complicated operation than a straight thread is. a bit too deep with the tap and the threaded hole can be screwed up. if the maker did not set up the machine right, this could happen.
the next thing is how tight did the fitting get installed? that could also be the problem, along with cross threading
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
t3 kopf
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
Im not above making mistakes, but ill say that im an airframe mechanic and its not likely that im gonna make a mistake on something as simple as this. Sure some people are gonna have some of these go westy units that have no problems. But some obviously do have some that leak in the same place. I would say that if you are reading this thread and you have go westy fuel rails, you need to take a serious look at these things and ask yourself if its worth your van to keep them, knowing the facts. If you decide you wanna keep them, then I would highly recommend getting your van officially appraised and giving that appraisal to your insurance company.
_________________
'90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
not hard to design a correctly engineered solution to this
I suspect the issue is small production runs, resulting in el cheapo manf.
_________________
.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| boy, if gowesty cant make a leak tight tapered pipe thread, what else cant they do right? this should not be rocket science, did they tap the threads too deep, not enough threads, failure to use pipe sealant or teflon tape??? Good grief, quailty control sure sucks. |
| t3 kopf wrote: |
| The threads on these things are pretty course. |
| Merian wrote: |
| I suspect the issue is small production runs, resulting in el cheapo manf. |
The manufacturing quality of mine is good and the threads look fine.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32609
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
I ordered GoWesty's fuel rails.
I assembled GoWesty's fuel rails.
I have 10,000 miles of leak free motoring on the GoWesty fuel rails.
There isn't any problem with them at all.
They were made from quality materials.
The threads were not buggered or screwed up.
I know many here love to hate GoWesty.
IMHO ....... If one had a leak, one assembled them incorrectly. It's a simple threaded plumbing connection, no VooDoo, no magic, just use good assembly practices and all will be fine.
I find it far more comforting to be running these metal rails than running 30 year old plastic rails.
Dave |
problem is that if the holes were tapped too deep, the fitting may not seal it may bottom out before sealing. machining a tapered pipe thread is a slightly more complicated operation than a straight thread is. a bit too deep with the tap and the threaded hole can be screwed up. if the maker did not set up the machine right, this could happen.
the next thing is how tight did the fitting get installed? that could also be the problem, along with cross threading |
You quoted me but I'm not sure you read what I posted.
"IMHO ....... If one had a leak, one assembled them incorrectly. It's a simple threaded plumbing connection, no VooDoo, no magic, just use good assembly practices and all will be fine. "
The units ARE well made, the holes aren't drilled or tapped wrong, the problem is with the field assembly concept.
We now live in an age of (excuse me here) a lack of practical skills. Who builds engines today? Who repairs broken apparatus today? Who plumbs their own home? Who has EVER cut threads on a steel pipe for water or gas?
These are skills that are literally dying off, "We" (a generic "you" actually) pay people to do a given task today. You throw away a broken item and you buy a new one, you don't know that cutting pipe threads yourself was even possible.
Heck! Who even mows their own lawn today? If they do, do they know that recoil starters are a modern invention and that we used to wrap a rope around a pulley and pull, only to rewrap again and again if it didn't start? That there was a special knot used to tie the start rope to the handle bar so that it is handy for use.
GoWesty's mistake is simply thinking that the common man possesses skills to properly assemble pipe fittings, they forgot that we live in a "more is better" society which translates poorly into fasteners, tight is good? Than tighter must be better!
GoWesty failed to make it In line with todays wide spread poor skill set.
I'm surrounded by mechanically inept people everyday. What used to basic life skills have been replaced by key boards, monitors and hiring people to repair your stuff.
It follows that a percentage of the fuel rail buyers (probably a large percentage) haven't a clue about how to PROPERLY assemble a basic tapered thread, especially a small 1/4" pipe thread into aluminum that is easily buggered with minimal force!
My opinion anyway.......
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
I have installed this after leaving the Locktite to cure for a few days and all seems ok. The only issue is that the fittings are a bit longer than the original barbs so the fuel rail on the left side is touching the coolant hose a little, so I will have to shorten the fuel hose to the injectors a little.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
You quoted me but I'm not sure you read what I posted.
"IMHO ....... If one had a leak, one assembled them incorrectly. It's a simple threaded plumbing connection, no VooDoo, no magic, just use good assembly practices and all will be fine. "
The units ARE well made, the holes aren't drilled or tapped wrong, the problem is with the field assembly concept.
We now live in an age of (excuse me here) a lack of practical skills. Who builds engines today? Who repairs broken apparatus today? Who plumbs their own home? Who has EVER cut threads on a steel pipe for water or gas?
These are skills that are literally dying off, "We" (a generic "you" actually) pay people to do a given task today. You throw away a broken item and you buy a new one, you don't know that cutting pipe threads yourself was even possible.
Heck! Who even mows their own lawn today? If they do, do they know that recoil starters are a modern invention and that we used to wrap a rope around a pulley and pull, only to rewrap again and again if it didn't start? That there was a special knot used to tie the start rope to the handle bar so that it is handy for use.
GoWesty's mistake is simply thinking that the common man possesses skills to properly assemble pipe fittings, they forgot that we live in a "more is better" society which translates poorly into fasteners, tight is good? Than tighter must be better!
GoWesty failed to make it In line with todays wide spread poor skill set.
I'm surrounded by mechanically inept people everyday. What used to basic life skills have been replaced by key boards, monitors and hiring people to repair your stuff.
It follows that a percentage of the fuel rail buyers (probably a large percentage) haven't a clue about how to PROPERLY assemble a basic tapered thread, especially a small 1/4" pipe thread into aluminum that is easily buggered with minimal force!
My opinion anyway.......
Dave |
lets not exclude the posibility that one or more of the rails had a defect rather than blame the purchaser that put it together. I fully agree that many folks lack skills once so common. used to be kids would do yard work, mow the neighbors lawn for spending money, know how to repair the lawn mower ect. every kid I knew in highschool had a 20+ year old hand me down car that they and there friends fixed them self. now days we have professional gardeners do most of the yard work and the kids are driven by mommy to school, heck they hardly ride bikes any more. to busy on faceplant errr facebook. the current generation is for the most part helpless, coddeled, protected and entitled. ugh!
I have experienced some very poorly made gowesty parts, crappy grind on a cam shaft, it had rough cuts on the bearing surface, gowesty told me to run it anyway, ha, ha it went back, the lifters were shiped tossed in a box loose, all nicked up, gowesty told me that that wont hurt anything, they went back. I got the opinion from a professioanl engine builder on these parts, cam cut badly and damaged lifters, he laughed and agreed with me, junk!
go westys attitude was so what, run them anyway. They had a huge quailty control problem, didnt care about quality when found out, and they couldnt even manage to wrap a little protection around the lifteou for shipping, just let them bang togther, the shipping department was either stupid as a rock, or stoned.
go westys response to these problems was unforgivable. they should have immediatly offered to take them back and apologize paying shipping both ways rather than tell me to run them total idiots.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silverbulletuk
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 206
Location: NW Surrey, UK
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| keithwwalker wrote: |
imo, the Van Cafe design having less threaded joints is inherently safer, but it is not the best design.
I have a set, but have not installed them yet...
The problem with the V-C and GoW designs is that both retain the little stub hoses that connect the manifold to the injector.
Modern fuel rails have eliminated that weak link.
Further, there is still the seemingly superfluous fuel return line on each manifold. More rubber hose to overheat and potentially fail.
I am thinking that the best design is one that totally eliminates the half-assed elements and is not a manifold, but a TRUE fuel rail.
A fuel rail would connect directy to the injectors.
I would go a step farther and rout the fuel regulator out of the engine bay totally, and above the left wheel well to the left of the transmission area. That way if you get a leak, it won't be spraying all over the exhaust pipes.
And connect it all with teflon lines overbraided with stainless steel and AN fittings. Some 914 guys actually did this
[pic]
[pic]
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=82144 |
You cannot do this on a wbx because the injectors are not parallel, the pintle ends are spaced further apart than the hose tail ends.
_________________
1986 syncro twin-slider rhd, 3.2S Oettinger wbx6
1990 SA Microbus - Supercharged wbx going in with UN-1 trans.
www.025motorsport.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| silverbulletuk wrote: |
You cannot do this on a wbx because the injectors are not parallel, the pintle ends are spaced further apart than the hose tail ends. |
plus it appears that the seal to the injectors is maintained by compressing an elastomer seal between the rail and injector, that rail gets a little loose or seal shrinks a bit and it would leak. the way the rail is mounted by a canterlevered arm to the bolts is not reassuring to me. it appears hooky at best.
just go with the all metal welded tubing fuel rails as found on the old type IV motors, pretty much fool err... fuel proof. no threaded parts, just four hose fitings
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| t3 kopf wrote: |
Well that makes 2 leaking from the same spot. 1 more and its a trend...  |
Looks like we have a trend - I checked my fuel rails after driving for a couple of days and there is a drop of fuel under the end caps on both sides.
Like t3 kopf I am fairly confident I assembled them correctly and on closer inspection the threads on the end caps are quite coarse like t3 kopf said earlier.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)
Last edited by Mellow Yellow 74 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
| t3 kopf wrote: |
| Well that makes 2 leaking from the same spot. 1 more and its a trend... |
Looks like we have a trend - I checked my fuel rails after driving for a couple of days and there is a drop of fuel uder the end caps on both sides.
Like t3 kopf I am fairly confident I assembled them correctly and on closer inspection the threads on the end caps are quite coarse like t3 kopf said earlier. |
what do you mean by course? when talking of threads, course means a larger pitch than a fine thread. do you mean poor surface finish, roughness?
any photos to share?
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
I mean they have a larger pitch compared to the threads on the hose connectors
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32609
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
I'm not saying that GoWesty has the best design nor am I saying that they are marketing it properly, but the fact is a threaded NPT connection is a time proven fuel connection.
Each size of NPT threads have a different thread pitch.
1/4" and 3/8 do share the same pitch .05556
1/2" is coarser at .07143
Honestly, part of the problem may lie with the thread sealer being used.
By their very nature the NPT standard has voids in the high and low points of the thread. Because of this, A sealer MUST be used.
Gasoline is a proven enemy of Teflon, maybe not immediately but for sure down the road a bit.
Many use yellow "gas" rated tape thinking gasoline, but it is actually for atmospheric gases such as propane or natural gas. It is a thicker teflon tape basically.
Liquid gasoline requires a product that will not be affected by gasoline.
Good old fashioned Permatex form-a-gasket No.3 or a more modern alternative such as Gasoila.
Any conventional sealer not formulated for gasoline, will leak after awhile.
GoWesty sends a small tube of some type of sealant to use, what it is, I do not know.
In my twisted way of thinking, You are best served to set that tube aside and use a proven sealant such as those mentioned above.
I do think GoWesty is seriously short sighted marketing such a critical and possibly dangerous item to the general public disassembled....... Though I imagine legally they are "off the hook" if a fire ensues from a leak? They just sold parts and cannot control the final assembly technique.
Again, my 2cents and this is IMHO.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
| GoWesty sends a small tube of some type of sealant to use, what it is, I do not know. In my twisted way of thinking, You are best served to set that tube aside and use a proven sealant such as those mentioned above. |
The kit comes with two tiny tubes of Locktite 545 as shown in your photo earlier. It might try and remove the fittings and reseal them with Stag Jointing Paste, a product available in Australia which is suitable for use with gasoline.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32609
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I'm not saying that GoWesty has the best design nor am I saying that they are marketing it properly, but the fact is a threaded NPT connection is a time proven fuel connection.
Each size of NPT threads have a different thread pitch.
1/4" and 3/8 do share the same pitch .05556
1/2" is coarser at .07143
Honestly, part of the problem may lie with the thread sealer being used.
By their very nature the NPT standard has voids in the high and low points of the thread. Because of this, A sealer MUST be used.
Gasoline is a proven enemy of Teflon, maybe not immediately but for sure down the road a bit.
Many use yellow "gas" rated tape thinking gasoline, but it is actually for atmospheric gases such as propane or natural gas. It is a thicker teflon tape basically.
Liquid gasoline requires a product that will not be affected by gasoline.
Good old fashioned Permatex form-a-gasket No.3 or a more modern alternative such as Gasoila.
Any conventional sealer not formulated for gasoline, will leak after awhile.
GoWesty sends a small tube of some type of sealant to use, what it is, I do not know.
In my twisted way of thinking, You are best served to set that tube aside and use a proven sealant such as those mentioned above.
I do think GoWesty is seriously short sighted marketing such a critical and possibly dangerous item to the general public disassembled....... Though I imagine legally they are "off the hook" if a fire ensues from a leak? They just sold parts and cannot control the final assembly technique.
Again, my 2cents and this is IMHO.
Dave |
Teflon tape can be used with gasonline
link....
http://www.mercotape.com/html/ptfecompatibility.html
perhaps some conterfit teflon tape will fail, but real teflon (PTFE) is not attacked by gasoline. For all you know tape made in outer mongolia is actually made from reclaimed white shopping bags! Buy from a reputable supplier.
Now as for trademarks, we call it Teflon tape, but really Teflon is only trademarked to duPont. chemically it is PTFE, see that infomon link above.
as far as the course threads, well, the pitch (corseness) must match between the mating parts. an 1/8 inch npt thread wont even come close too fitting a 1/4 inch npt thread.
howver if the hole was tapped too deep, or drived too big (or small for that matter), then sealing problems can occure, you will end up bottoming out the threads on the fitting or plug, then it wont seal correct like. you always must have threads exposed when finished ttightenin, if not it is bottomed out, hole was too big, tapped too deep.
good luck
as mentiojed prior, I have had real issues with gowestys quality control on engine parts, and their attitude of "whats the problem? run it anyway" just plain sucks, bunch of monkeys running the show, ugh!!!!
Toss out that gowesty stuff and pick up some all metal fuel rails from a type IV motor such as on the 914 car. no threads to ever leak.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
Legally GW is "on the hook" if a fire ensues from a leak - they will claim it is improper assembly, but they are selling a consumer product and are responsible for giving correct instructions
and maybe they have - a jury would decide that tho, and I cannot understand why they are selling this thing in pieces w/out thinking thru
_________________
.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
|
|
| Merian wrote: |
Legally GW is "on the hook" if a fire ensues from a leak - they will claim it is improper assembly, but they are selling a consumer product and are responsible for giving correct instructions
and maybe they have - a jury would decide that tho, and I cannot understand why they are selling this thing in pieces w/out thinking thru |
maybe they have less liability if the buyer assembles it, blame the assembly so it is the buyers fault. If sold assembled and it leaked then there would be liability on go westys part I would think. assembler beware!
but why buy a part that has an additional five threaded parts that could fail if not done correctly when you can simply use the VW designed type IV single piece part??????
the van cafe metal rail appears to be a better deal, a little more expensive, but they claim they leak test them, some thing gowesty is unwillling to do. It has but one threaded joint, but it is tested, so a leak would be on them, not the buyer.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
