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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3781 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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When you pick up the main body of the carb and shake it do you hear a rattle inside? That brass stub that sticks out above the accelerator pump is the end of a passage way and it contains two steel ball bearings that act as valves. Both of them need to be free from varnish and gunk and the passage open. I pulled the brass plug with some needle nose plyers after a carb cleaner soak. Gently pull and twist and work it out.
The original PCI on my car had one of the balls missing (from a previous repair job) and a copper plated bb was just the thing to replace it with.. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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tfmichie Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Congrats with your nice project! Nice to see that I am not the only one with a carb with some strange nuts/bolts...
After a cleanup of my carb I wantrd to re-install... And the thread broke... So this is my solution
I adapted the screw with a metal grinder so it has an angle now... It did the trick for me
Good luck![/img] |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I took the part out of the diesel soak earlier today. Unfortunately, it accomplished absolutely nothing.
Eric&Barb wrote: |
Would not say the air bleed jet is ruined, but it does not help to round over the slot edges for future removal.
95% of the battle to get any threaded fastener removed is in less than the first 1/8 of a turn. |
I have a spare jet from my last carb. It won't do any good with the bad one stuck in this new carb body though.
Since soaking and KROIL did nothing to it, I might need to get one of those stripped bolt removal kits.
my59 wrote: |
When you pick up the main body of the carb and shake it do you hear a rattle inside? That brass stub that sticks out above the accelerator pump is the end of a passage way and it contains two steel ball bearings that act as valves. Both of them need to be free from varnish and gunk and the passage open. I pulled the brass plug with some needle nose plyers after a carb cleaner soak. Gently pull and twist and work it out.
The original PCI on my car had one of the balls missing (from a previous repair job) and a copper plated bb was just the thing to replace it with.. |
Once the body was taken out of the diesel, I gave it a shake. I heard no noise. I tried to remove the plug, but it wouldn't budge. I only accomplished in making tiny marks on the plug itself. I stopped before I ruined it further.
tfmichie wrote: |
Congrats with your nice project! Nice to see that I am not the only one with a carb with some strange nuts/bolts...
After a cleanup of my carb I wantrd to re-install... And the thread broke... So this is my solution
I adapted the screw with a metal grinder so it has an angle now... It did the trick for me
Good luck![/img] |
Thanks.
That's a pretty nifty solution. Simpler than the stupid one I tried to propose a while back.
Anyway, I hope to get as far as you have in your project one day. _________________ 57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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This is beyond frustrating.
So, with the advice of one of my friends, I boiled the carb body in water for a long while, which cleaned it up rather nicely, let it cool down, and then tried to remove both the jet and the brass tubing. Nothing happened, I only made it even worse. I don't want to post pictures of what I have done for it is shameful.
my59 wrote: |
When you pick up the main body of the carb and shake it do you hear a rattle inside? That brass stub that sticks out above the accelerator pump is the end of a passage way and it contains two steel ball bearings that act as valves. Both of them need to be free from varnish and gunk and the passage open. I pulled the brass plug with some needle nose plyers after a carb cleaner soak. Gently pull and twist and work it out.
The original PCI on my car had one of the balls missing (from a previous repair job) and a copper plated bb was just the thing to replace it with.. |
Is there an easier way to do this? Apparently I have the aptitude of a child and am only accomplishing making all these brass parts more mangled. Would it be possible to replace this with a piece of brass tubing or something similar?
Honestly, I'm really close to saying fuck it and doing what tfmichie did with my original carburetor. The only thing that needs to be done on that carb, aside from getting it tapped which is way too expensive honestly, is to remove the piece of brass tubing that my59 talked about.
That or I wait a while for when I get a real job and grab a new one off of WolfsbergWest. Sure, throwing in the towel is pathetic, weak, and expensive, but at least it's worry free. _________________ 57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Water is good to help clean out passages, but it tends to cause corrosion. You should have soaked it in penetrating oil to get it into the threads. Oil being a lubricant would help lessen the friction from corrosion already in the threads....
How much was it to get the original one tapped to a bigger size? Have you tried a different shop for a better price? Have had shops give a really high price or excuses because they just did not want to bother with our business.
Original German carbs are much better than any after market one. Maybe at this point you should contact one of the carb rebuilders in the classifieds and send in both to see if one can be done up right. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Problem with water is it tends to cause corrosion. You should have soaked it in penetrating oil to get it into the threads.
How much was it to get the original one tapped to a bigger size? Have you tried a different shop for a better price? Have had shops give a really high price or excuses because they just did not want to bother with our business.
Original German carbs are much better than any after market one. Maybe at this point you should contact one of the carb rebuilders in the classifieds and send in both to see if one can be done up right. |
Crap. I'll see if I can find some in the garage and use it. Though KROIL and BreakFree did nothing to it after giving it a bit for a night.
There's only one machine shop in my area and they said the entire job could cost over 100 dollars, and I know I can get a used parts carb off here for much cheaper than that.
I could, but in retrospect, it is just one thing on the carb that needs to be removed, the brass plug, on my original carb at least. Beyond that it's just reassembling it, and when I get the engine running in six-thousand years from now, then it's tuning it, according to the rebuild kit instructions at least. _________________ 57' Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612922 |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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It can take up to a week or two for penetrating oil to soak into threads, not likely just over night..
Should be less than $50.00 to fix threads like that. Again check the classifieds for a carb rebuilder, and make inquires. Otherwise keep buying old crusty used carbs and hope for winner... _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
It can take up to a week or two for penetrating oil to soak into threads, not likely just over night..
Should be less than $50.00 to fix threads like that. Again check the classifieds for a carb rebuilder, and make inquires. Otherwise keep buying carbs and hope for winner... |
Oh, well crap. I'll put some more on and come back in two weeks then.
I accidentally clicked post before giving the diameter of the ruined hole. According to my calipers, the hole is now ~7.5mm wide.
Also because I am a stubborn prick, I tried one last go at removing the brass plug and got it out. There is only one brass ball inside. I'm going to try and cannibalize my original carb for it's brass plug and another ball after letting it soak for a week.
I'd have some pictures, but this new camera is having trouble taking decent pictures of parts. _________________ 57' Beetle
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Big trick to removing any screw is to push down into the head always harder than you try to turn it. In other words if you have the correct size screw driver and it slips in the head of the screw, you are not pushing down hard enough.
Removed many thousands of "stripped" head and/or just "stuck" Phillip head screws on aircraft and flight line equipment when in the USAF. Used a speed handle and a block to go on the handle so as much as ones body weight could be shoved down into the screw. Then worked each screw back and forth... Very very rarely ever need to drill off the head of a screw.
Met a radio/electronics specialist in a C-130 refurb hanger one night. He had stripped the heads of brass Phillip screws, due to being "stuck". Pulled out the speed handle and block and removed one screw easily. Turned to the specialist and told him that he just needed to push into the screw harder. To which the specialist replied that it was not fair that I had that special block to push against. Picked up the speed handle he had without a block, pushed with both hands on the crank of the handle and proceeded to remove the remaining fifteen or so stripped screws from the radio antenna in about three minutes. Handed him the stripped screws and said "You are right, that is a terrible tool to use.".
Oh, and if your friend now seductively recommends using an Easy-out, ignore that advice, or end up with a worse situation. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3781 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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The carb I rebuilt had been on the car since new but it was a driver and well maintained; after removing all the plastic and rubber bits I but the rest into a bucket of carb cleaner for a week (having only weekends to work on it) and it came apart easily. The brass plug came out with the carb in a vice and some needle nose vice grips clamped over a bit of rag. Rotated back and forth and then pulling a bit while rotating. It took a while.
The spare I picked up at a swap meet was much nastier and I gave it the same treatment and the week after started in on it. The parts still stuck I threw back in the bucket of carb cleaner and let soak for another week.
Take it slow and easy. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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KingOfAces wrote: |
Oh, well crap. I'll put some more on and come back in two weeks then.. |
Keep going back at least every couple of days and apply a drop or two more each time. Penetrating oil is VERY thin so it can get into extremely tight places, but due to being so thin it evaporates off quickly. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, it's been a while since I posted to here. I even got some work done in the meantime.
I tried literally everything you guys said, and that jet in the other carb is still there. I discovered after trying to attempt to do a similar fix to tfmichie's, that enough of the original threads in the original carb remained that allowed me to put in a stud and tighten it on the flange. I sat the carb on the flange, and I didn't notice it being off balance, so I suppose I got really lucky.
With all this done, I went on ahead to rebuilding the original carburetor. I put KROIL on every thread of every screw and jet, and once I had seated them, I used compressed air to get the excess KROIL out of the carb. I don't want to screw around with stuck jets in the future.
While I was rebuilding the carb, I also started the process of rebuilding the fuel pump.
After giving the two nuts and the fuel line some KROIL and letting it sit for a few days, I took the fuel pump off the engine. It was covered in grime and gunk, but I got that cleaned off. It looks good now.
However, I can't get it apart. I even tossed it in diesel for a week, (someone I asked while I was gone brought up the point that anything I want to save that wasn't in the rebuild kit cannot be harmed by tossing the assembled pump in a cleaner), and still the two halves are together. I only took it out and cleaned it yesterday, and used compressed air to get most of the grime deep inside out, but still. Anyone have any advice?
On a side note, I used soap and hot water to clean off the plastic flange.
Anyway, onto pics. Quite a few of them are not worth uploading to here.
Notice in the next pic that I have recovered three nuts with the fuel pump. When I removed the fuel pump, I found the other carburetor nut under the fuel pump with the grime that had accumulated over the years. I still have the other one and later replaced the new nuts I used to install the carb with the original ones.
Finally, this is what the fuel pump looks like at this moment.
I used compressed air to get rid of the grime in places I couldn't reach, but by the time I finished that, it was dark and I don't have pictures of that. The difference is small enough that I won't bother until I get the two halves apart.
Pics will be done a bit differently from now on. I will mass upload all my pics to Imgur, but will upload the good ones to TheSamba to combat dead links.
Album of the nut and bolt fix attempt (mostly useless pictures) : http://imgur.com/a/lowVr
Album of carburetor rebuild pics: http://imgur.com/a/aeNLb
Album of the Fuel Pump removal: http://imgur.com/a/0Z8cu
Album of after cleaning off the Fuel Pump: http://imgur.com/a/GU3iW _________________ 57' Beetle
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Put the fuel pump back in the vice. Then rap on the top sideways with a chunk of 2x4 about 12" long in one hand to pop the top off. With other hand have it on the fuel pump top to keep it from flying off. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Put the fuel pump back in the vice. Then rap on the top sideways with a chunk of 2x4 about 12" long in one hand to pop the top off. With other hand have it on the fuel pump top to keep it from flying off. |
I tried this earlier today. First I went slow then went faster and harder. Nothing happened, it's still stuck together.
I'm starting to notice a trend when working on this car. _________________ 57' Beetle
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I was looking over the pump, hoping to find some inspiration as to what to try next in getting it apart, and noticed I accidentally ate some of it when I tried to get it apart earlier today.
It doesn't look that bad, to me at least.
I swear at some point I'm going to get a proper workbench and vise. This tiny thing isn't cutting it anymore. _________________ 57' Beetle
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Not too bad. A little fine sandpaper on a flat surface and sand that flange on it to flatten.
Try laying the pump on it forward side on a piece of wood. The rap on it a bit more. It is just the rubber diaphragm keeping the two parts stuck together. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3781 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I used a piece of wood closet rod and tapped sideways on the top and bottom. Had it in a vice wrapped in a rag so only the top was clamped in and gave it a few smacks on the flange as well. I worked both sides before the top popped. You have to remember that diaphragm is glued in with gasoline varnish. Decades worth.
You could soak it in something nasty that eats rubber but I would be concerned about the valve discs inside as you want to reuse them if you can. The cheap rebuild kits come with thin metal valve discs that on the first rebuild did not work very well. When I put the thicker original discs in it was fine.. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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Bug-nut Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2015 Posts: 485 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
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Howdy KingOfAces how's the bug project coming along? _________________ 1959 Fjord Blue Volkswagen Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight=
1962 Austin-Healey Sprite
Snort wrote: |
A 59 Beetle is just an Oval-Window car with aspirations of modernity. |
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cowboys Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Cisco,Texas
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
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You got a great looking Oval...That paint job is still righteous...I say get some new tires....change the fluids...and clean out fuel tank and lines and try to start that baby....It's real rare to find an Oval in that condition. I have three Ovals...They are like family members. Congratulations on your new obsession my friend..... _________________ Jason Collier |
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KingOfAces Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2014 Posts: 140 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle |
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Hello, it's been a while.
I got a little work done on the Beetle today. I originally wanted to remove the engine, put some KROIL on the plugs, and adjust the valves. However, I only got as far as removing the oil, so it doesn't go everywhere when I remove the valve covers. What's worse, unless I am mistaken, whoever changed the oil last on the beetle, forgot to put the oil screen back.
She's a little dusty now.
Before I removed either of the cables
Ground installed
Old positive cable
New positive cable
This is how it sits now. I tried hooking it up, positive first like the Haynes manual suggested, and honking the horn. Unfortunately, nothing happened. So, I disconnected the cables.
On a side note, this is the underside of the transmission. I do not have a 17mm nut socket to remove the plug, but I didn't see it. I see two bolts. Is it possible a previous mechanic or whoever replaced the plug with a bolt at some point? If it is there, could someone point it out?
Unsurprisingly, it needed a bit of coaxing to get off
This is what I found when I got the cover off. There was no screen.
After I cleaned it off. The gasket is stuck on the cover, and there is a small bit left on the engine itself.
Recently, I got the reusable oil filter gaskets from WolfburgWest. so I did at used one of the gaskets to put between the cap and the engine itself, and put the copper rings between the nuts and the cap. I also left my oil drain pan under the engine in case it leaked over night.
Note the lack of a fuel pump. I put it back on after my last update, but took it off again today. I took a block of wood and a handheld sledge to it, but still it would not come apart.
When I went to make sure that the nut that would let me put the fan belt was indeed 21mm, it turned freely when I placed the socket on it, and I was able to remove it by hand.
This was what was on the outside
This is how many washers were on the inside
After installation
Tomorrow, I am going to try and remove the engine from the car and adjust the valves at least.
Album of pictures; http://imgur.com/a/Tu81E _________________ 57' Beetle
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