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Inherited My Granddad's '57 Beetle
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingOfAces wrote:

This gives me an idea. Fitting a pipe on the back would be quite difficult, since the tube the fuel comes out out is slightly taller than the rest of the tap, aside from the threads. I tried it with another one of my sockets, and it didn't go too well. Not only that, it makes the tap too long for my vise.


With a piece of pipe you can hacksaw and file out a groove for the outlet tube to fit into. Then need to find a bigger vice or a C-clamp and pieces of wood to do the same as a vice.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do save the used brass carb parts, unless there is obvious damage to them. There have been lots of reports of failure of the new shut of valves sold today. Personally have never had an OG one fail in over 300,000 miles of driving VWs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to head home today, but I do have time for a quick update.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Do save the used brass carb parts, unless there is obvious damage to them. There have been lots of reports of failure of the new shut of valves sold today. Personally have never had an OG one fail in over 300,000 miles of driving VWs


I have all of the parts that have replacement parts from the rebuild kit (except the rubber washers, I tossed those out) in their own box in the garage. I'll be sure to hang onto them.

Eric&Barb wrote:
With a piece of pipe you can hacksaw and file out a groove for the outlet tube to fit into. Then need to find a bigger vice or a C-clamp and pieces of wood to do the same as a vice.


I have done a one up from that. I suppose I will show it off now. I wanted to hold off on this until I actually got the retaining ring out, but I will show you guys anyway. While I am stuck at home over the holiday weekend, I will do my best to disassemble the tap.

Like I said in a post about 2 months ago now, I have access to a 3D printer, a basic knowledge of the workings of the printer, and access to SolidWorks. So, I grabbed some cheap calipers and began to measure the fuel tap. While my Engineering (I'm doing more Engineering on this project than in college, hilariously) wasn't exact, it was very close, and after some sanding, the part fit quite well.

I was limited by my vise when I had drafted the parts in SoildWorks. I used the calipers to measure the maximum extension of the jaws of my vise, that I was comfortable with. It came to just under 65mm. The selector knob on the front of the tap is ~22mm tall and the body of the tap up to the part where the fillet begins is also 22mm, so that left me with 21mm to work with. So, after two hours of measuring and double checking, I came up with this:

If any of you are drafters, please forgive my awful technique that I had used to make this part. My professor would die inside if he saw that tree of features to the left of these screenshots. I was in a rush when I made it, and I didn't have to worry about getting a good grade on it so I got a little lazy.

Iso View:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Section/Side View:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Top View:
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Front View:
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The second part is a custom diameter'd tube made to fit over the selector knob. I was unable to find a PVC pipe that would work properly, so I fabricated this. Nothing special:

Iso view:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



They came out quite well, considering the age of the 3D printer and limitation of the printing head. The head on the Colleges Printer can only do increments of 4 microns, now and days 1 micron and lower is the average. Anyway, they were done in only a few hours, and after a quick detour after Calculus, I got them in my hands and ready to be used.

My engineering was accurate, but not precise. The part fit over the stem and gave it room so it couldn't be bent, but I had made the lip that goes over the flat part over the stem (sorry for lack of technical terms) was too shallow, so I had to sand it down some to prevent the vise from moving the part onto the fuel stem.

Anyway, onto pics. Some of these are of terrible quality, sorry for that.

My trusty vise:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The parts:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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How they will be fitted over the tap:
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On the tap:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a good pic of my imprecise measurements. The flat part just below where the nut goes onto the tap is too shallow, which means that rest of the part, I'll call it the rim, does not come into contact with the rest of the tap. I have since sanded it down.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a pic showing off the gap between the tap and the part. I gave it 1.5mm of space all around the stem. I did sand it down a little bit because I got paranoid when I saw the parts move when I compressed them with the vise:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Parts and tap in vise:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A view of the stem being cradled in the part:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As always, album of all the pics. Thankfully, not nearly as much as there was yesterday: http://imgur.com/a/wDXo2

Also special thanks to my CAD Professor for letting me use the 3D Printer for this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool!!!
So you'll use a dental pick or something similar to get under the retaining ring to snatch it out?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news!

Finally, after probably ruining three something dental picks, I finally got the ring out. I only wish I had a video of it, as it was hilarious. After tightening the vise well beyond reason, the ring popped out with a nerve wracking pop. I thought I broke something until I checked the ring with a pick and pried it out.

I guess when people say that automotive work is simply just "Apply more force", they're right.

57BLITZ wrote:
Cool!!!
So you'll use a dental pick or something similar to get under the retaining ring to snatch it out?

Yes. I used them improperly, and most of them are ruined, but I got it out

According to the guide that was linked a long time ago. This one: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383448&highlight=fuel+tap+rebuild the contents of the tap are spring loaded and I assume they should have came out when I took it out of the vise. They haven't. The guide says I can simply remove it, but I cannot. I have noticed my tap is slightly different from the one in the guide, is there something I am missing?

Anyway, time for a few pics.

Just after I picked it out with a pick.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The ring and the rest of the tap
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After cleaning out the gunk under the ring
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As always, the album of all the images: http://imgur.com/a/CeFos
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put the handle back on the switch. Apply Kroil and try wiggling the valve stem back and forth till you feel it shift. Then try wiggling it farther, and a little more....
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to sit down with this project and work on it some more.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Put the handle back on the switch. Apply Kroil and try wiggling the valve stem back and forth till you feel it shift. Then try wiggling it farther, and a little more....


I have not had much luck doing this. It moves, but it's still assembled.

Onto the carburetor. I asked this when I made the massive post of it's disassembly, but I will ask again as even I have had a hard time loading that page, which leads to another question but I will ask that after this one.

So, part 15, he Emulsion Tube is stuck in the body. I KROIL'd it, but it's still in there. Might not matter though, because I have an even worse problem; one of the two bolts that are supposed to be on the carburetor is missing.

This is just for reference. The bolt on right in the image is the one that is missing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the carburetor I have for comparison:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have no idea who did it. I asked my Aunt, and she said her ex-husband did nothing with the Beetle, aside trying to get it under his name and then christ knows what next. I'd hazard to guess it was a local place that did the repair, but that was so long ago and I have no idea which place that would have done it, I don't care. My question is, is this fixable, or do I need to get a new carburetor body?

Here's a couple of pictures of what I am talking about:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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The nut and bolt that held the carb to the body:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's what it looked like before I disassembled it. You can see the nut and bolt to the right of the image:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When I had removed the nuts from the carburetor, I didn't notice that someone used a nut and bolt separate from the carb to hold it to the flange. Neither did I notice that I broke the bolt, but it came undone so easily, that I never had the thought in my mind. As you can see, the nut on the bolt was tightened down so that the end of the bolt was tilted at whatever degree the slanted part of the carb is.

It looks like someone took out the bolt, lobbed off the part the original bolt was mounted in off of the main body of the carburetor, and then drilled through the hole the bolt was in to make space for a replacement bolt.


My last question is about TheSamba Gallery. Imgur is a terrible, awful image hosting service, and I'd like to just shove all of my pictures here. Is it alright if I just mass upload all of my pictures from my galleries to the image servers, or will someone get mad? I didn't see any sort of policies on the upload page, but I just want to double check before I add a few digits to the number of pages under the Oval category.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bolt has a head (hex or otherwise) that can be driven by a tool, often by a wrench.

A stud is a round object that has threads on both ends or the full length.

Probably easiest and less expensive is to get a stud with one end slightly bigger, called a step stud. A smaller version of this is used for common stripped studs that hold on the sump plate.

Load the images up on thesamba.com, as long as they are VW oriented no one will fuss.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingOfAces wrote:
My last question is about TheSamba Gallery. Imgur is a terrible, awful image hosting service, and I'd like to just shove all of my pictures here. Is it alright if I just mass upload all of my pictures from my galleries to the image servers, or will someone get mad? I didn't see any sort of policies on the upload page, but I just want to double check before I add a few digits to the number of pages under the Oval category.


Yes, it is ok and preferred for you to post them all here.
Feel free to do that and then edit your post to link to images on this site.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just find a new carb instead of trying to fix this one. If you install a larger diameter stud in the base of the carb you might have to drill the intake manifold hole larger too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loren wrote:
I would just find a new carb instead of trying to fix this one. If you install a larger diameter stud in the base of the carb you might have to drill the intake manifold hole larger too.


That is why a step stud would avoid that. Plus OP is trying not to just replace parts as much as possible, which is understandable with his family history in the bug.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Loren wrote:
I would just find a new carb instead of trying to fix this one. If you install a larger diameter stud in the base of the carb you might have to drill the intake manifold hole larger too.


That is why a step stud would avoid that. Plus OP is trying not to just replace parts as much as possible, which is understandable with his family history in the bug.


That's more or less what I want to do. Above all, I'd like to learn more about car repair/maintenance and other such general knowledge about mechanical things that I could apply elsewhere. I learn a lot doing this, even as slow as I go, but I enjoy it. It's quite interesting. I'm also stubborn with old stuff, so I'd like to see if I can actually get it working and whatnot before tossing in the towel. If I can't fix it, I'll get a new one.

That said, I really want to see this Beetle on the road. It's really sad to see it just sit there, withering away. It belongs on the road, not in a dusty old garage.

Anyway, teary eyed imagery aside, I would like to use a step stud, though I am not sure where I would get one from, but my carb has another problem. Thankfully this time, I have some better pictures.

The problem is whoever put that old nut and bolt redneck fix, drilled almost all of the threads out of where the stud should be going on my Carb. My first thought is to helicoil it, but I want to see what you guys think.

On a side note, I noticed going through some other restoration threads that the studs can be removed. I wonder what happened to lead someone to remove the stud that was originally in the carb then.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These will be reuploaded to the Samba servers when I get the rest of my pictures reuploaded to them.

EverettB wrote:
Yes, it is ok and preferred for you to post them all here.
Feel free to do that and then edit your post to link to images on this site.


Oh god, it's you. I thought that name looked important. Welcome to my extremely slow moving project!

Jokes aside, I tried editing my original post and it said that I cannot edit a post after an absurd amount of minutes, something like 80000 minutes, and to contact an admin if I need to edit something critical. I would like to do as you say, which is replace all of my old images that were hosted on imgur, and replace them after they are reuploaded on the Samba servers. My other posts don't seem to have this roadblock though.

I've gotten all of my oldest pictures reuploaded, but the newer pics are taking some time.

Also apologies if my image uploading is making the servers dry heave or the sort.

Finally, after taking an unfortunately long time on it, I have finally finished editing and uploaded videos of me removing the carb from my Beetle and also tearing it down. Unfortunately, you have to see my face and hear my voice in the first video, and what's worse, the second video has no sound. I had music playing in the background and I don't want to tempt Youtube's Copyright bot Legion.

There are also quite a few jumps in the video as I cut out every-time I had to either walk away from what I was doing, or took a picture of what I was doing.

Anyway, enjoy!

Video of me removing the carb:

Link


Video of me tearing down the carb:

Link

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A heli-coil would be a poor choice, but would work. Dealt with heli-coils in the USAF and had too often when removing a nut, had the whole nut and stud come out with the heli-coil to boot. Then you are someplace trying to reinstall the heli-coil, and the HC can be a real mess. Sometimes the HC can have a bad hair day and be sprung into a shape that can not be reinstalled.

A solid insert like Time-Sert can be installed and locked into place. Even if it does come out with a stud/bolt it can be threaded back in easily. Problem with solid inserts is some do require special tools to install, lock them in place, and the kit costs some money which might not be worth while if you are only going to use once.

Ace hardware and other old time hardware stores near you should have a smaller diameter selection of step studs. Your local threaded fastener store (we have "Tacoma Screw Products") or online version should have the larger step studs. You will most likely need to hacksaw and file down at least one end of the step stud to work. The only special tools required for this part will be a drill and tap. A little tricky to get the hole drilled straight and taking out such a little amount. A drill press and figuring out a way to vice the carb down to the table would help greatly and use a smaller drill bit to align the hole up....
Would not be a bad idea to have a local machine shop fix it for you. Since they can drill and tap it nice and straight.

As to why your uncle dumb dumb did this, it looks like he over torqued the nut on the stud, pulling out the threads in the soft cast metal. Then installed the bolt and of course over torqued that till it distorted the head to an angle....

At very least you will need to put a flat edge against the carb base and intake manifold flange to see how badly warped they might be. You should be able to bend back the intake flange most of the way back and the rest of the way file it flat. The carb base can only be filed flat. Need to keep the surfaces as flat as possible so they can seal to the gasket that goes into there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple, quick update today, since I haven't been able to get much done as of late.

Eric&Barb wrote:


A lot of information to consider. Thank you. But, I've went ahead and sent the local machine shop an email, detailing what needs to be done and asking if they could do this sort of thing. I want such a job done right, and I currently do not have the equipment to do so. I would do it myself, just to learn about it, but I don't want to screw it up. So we will be waiting on that.

I am not up at my Grandmothers for this week, so I am unable to see if the flange is warped. I'll check that the moment I get up there next week though.

In the meantime, I have a question about a concept I came up with one restless night, would something like this work, if I don't have any other options? Sorry for the quick sketch, but this is how I write down all of my ridiculous ideas when I have them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's simple. A 3D printed, or perhaps metal part, would go over the inclined part on the carburetor, to make a flat surface for a washer (which I forgot to draw) and bolt to sit on top of. As a result, the bolt wouldn't need to be torqued to an obscene amount of foot pounds and would hold the carb to the flange. I don't know about the compression abilities of 3D printed ABS plastic, but according to the rebuild kit, which I wanted to ask about, the carb doesn't need to be torqued to a spec. So I'd imagine if it's tight, it would work?

Also still no luck with disassembling the tap. Any more advice or ideas?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might work with plastic shim in there, but for long term would rather have metal or better yet just drilled and tapped for solid insert or step stud.

As for the fuel tap are you adding in some penetrating oil about once a week and giving it a wiggle for a few minutes in both rotational and axially directions once a day?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With this post, I have finally finished uploading most of my pictures to TheSamba servers and replaced all the photos in the past with the reuploaded photos. I'll probably mass upload all the pictures to an imgur album still, and only upload the more important/better pictures to TheSamba in the future.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Might work with plastic shim in there, but for long term would rather have metal or better yet just drilled and tapped for solid insert or step stud.

As for the fuel tap are you adding in some penetrating oil about once a week and giving it a wiggle for a few minutes in both rotational and axially directions once a day?


I am going to get the hole tapped at a machine shop, but before I do that, I am going to make sure that the flange and carburetor sit flat against each other. I can't do that until next week, so there still will be some waiting. On a side note, is that rust on the Intake Manifold Flange a big concern?

Also I have been doing that to the tap periodically, but I haven't had the time to put towards this project as I'd like.

EDIT: Apparently, I didn't realize there was a parts category for pictures. So, sorry about spamming the Oval category with a billion irrelevant pictures. They will be moved accordingly.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alrighty. I'm back, and with terrible news.

I got a second carburetor, because it would have been way too expensive to get the threads retapped by a machine shop. So, I'm just going to strip down another carb and Frankenstein it with my existing carb.

As usual, I screwed up.

I can't get the Emulsion Tube out, just like in the existing carb. Also, I can't get the Jet - Pilot Air Bleed out, and worse, I stripped it. I put KROIL on it and used the best sized screwdriver I had in my toolbox before attempting to remove it, but for once even that failed me.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a handful of pictures.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The main body of the new carb sits perfectly fine on the intake manifold flange.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXH7Z4LwvY&feature=youtu.be

That's all for now. I'm going to toss the main body of the carb in diesel and take it back out in two days.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you used a slot tip that was not wide enough. Got to let stuff like this soak in penetrating oil/fluid for a good long time or risk taking lots more of your hands on time fixing what you should not have done....

Did you try to slightly tighten the jet, then slightly loosen, repeating over and over till you got some movement?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized, after going through my quickly growing parts stash, that the Jet - Pilot Air Bleed from the existing carb is in good condition and would be a good substitute for this one I ruined. I can just use that. I really need to take a moment and breathe sometimes.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Looks like you used a slot tip that was not wide enough. Got to let stuff like this soak in penetrating oil/fluid for a good long time or risk taking lots more of your hands on time fixing what you should not have done....

Did you try to slightly tighten the jet, then slightly loosen, repeating over and over till you got some movement?


I didn't, but I know that now. I'll have to go through my collection of screw drivers because the one that is wider than the one I used can't fit into the hole the bleed is in. I'll remember that after I finish soaking them, which should be Saturday.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24671
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would not say the air bleed jet is ruined, but it does not help to round over the slot edges for future removal.

95% of the battle to get any threaded fastener removed is in less than the first 1/8 of a turn.
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