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Help Help
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2013
Posts: 117
Location: Running willy-nilly with scissors in So Cal
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 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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It seems odd that contemplating molesting a 15w will get death threats but putting windows on a panel is accepted. Maybe it's just how rare or desirable the vehicle you are starting with is?
IMO you're biggest issue maybe that it's a brazillian bus and noting that the dimensions may be completely fubar-ed. They are not exactly known for quality control. And, that a brazo bus will have a different value that a German bus. |
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hitest
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Buy it because you want it. Only a gambler buys a hacked bus from a secondary market and expects he can resell it later. Without pictures I can't tell if it's worth 40k- but I have yet to see a Brazilian bus hack job worth that. There's more to making a Brazilian bus a 23 w. than just hacking the roof.
_________________
| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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bus_lover
Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Thanks for reply. I was going to pm you link but I'm a newbie and can't pm yet. lol  |
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easy e
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2008
Posts: 3931
Location: 1 hr north of Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:01 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000
_________________
aka: Evan
Spreadsheet for Bus RPM, based on gearing & tire size (Excel format)
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Malokin Martin
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2007
Posts: 3099
Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:59 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Nobody wants an expensive brasilian 23 window clone and there are few (if any) stock brasilian bus' that are genuinely worth close to 40k. I imagine it would be tough to flip on the other end once you got tired of it.
As a side note, once you get anywhere above 20K (actual) cash in hand, you have real bargaining power. |
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BarryL 
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| bus_lover wrote: |
| ...would it be worth roughly $40k? |
To drive around in and get the looks and stare at and sit in and admire and polish is that worth the dough to you?
| bus_lover wrote: |
| ...resell-able at some point. |
A new car at $40k will depreciate to the point in x years it won't get diddly back. What is it worth to you for all the positive you got during the time you owned it in the difference when sold? |
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novetti
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2004
Posts: 469
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:52 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| The days of 3k brasilian kombis at the source are long gone for many years |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Malokin Martin wrote: |
| Nobody wants an expensive brasilian 23 window clone |
Yes....100% true!! Nobody wants an expensive conversion!!
But the marketplace has an ENORMOUS hunger for INEXPENSIVE 23-window conversions.
I have sold over 20 converted 23-window buses in the past 18 months. All have been in the 16K - 29K range (except for a couple of REALLY nice ones that went for 35K).
All were converted by Grumpy in Grumpy's shop using the highest quality conversion parts and techniques on planet earth. Some were rough projects (closer to the 16K range)....while others were decent drivers (closer to the 29K range). And everything in between.
I dont come from a position of armchair quarterback who studies the Samba classified ads and forms opinions of the marketplace while sitting in a comfy chair in front of a computer.
I buy, convert, and sell actual cars. So I can speak in regards to the "market" on these cars probably better than anybody. Certainly better than some of the brain surgeons on this site who like to chime in like experts on classes of vehicles they have never even seen in person.
As far as a 40K 23-window conversion goes....... The guy from Tennessee should check that the restoration work performed on the vehicle was done to a high standard. It would not make sense to buy a $40K "project" that you would have to re-do anyway.
If the car was very nice with everything new and made the prospective buyer happy.....then I think $40K would be a fair price. After all, a similar "real" 23W would be priced somewhere between $60K-$100K MORE than your $40K conversion bus.
If you decided that the paint or interior or mechanicals would need to be gone through......and a bunch more money would need to be spent....then at that point a $16K project 23W makes more sense.
If you had a complete 23W with all the expensive parts intact for $16K.....then you could put another $24K into it and probably have something you could be proud of (assuming you were willing to put in some sweat equity and you spent the $24K wisely and not like a drunken sailor).
As far as being "re-sellable" goes......I think that it would be hard to be hurt if you had a nice 23W clone for $40K. I have rented some of my fleet for weddings at $500-$1000 a pop........and the photo shoot and movie guys have me on speed-dial and pay good as well. Some people I have sold 23W buses to have created situations where the buses create ongoing revenue just by being vinyl "wrapped" or establishing photo/video relationships like I have and renting it out on a continual basis.
Clearly, 23W ownership creates value far beyond just re-sale price. The car is so iconic and so loved....and that presents endless opportunities for entrepreneurs to create financially beneficial situations.
My 2 cents......  |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Help Help wrote: |
IMO you're biggest issue maybe that it's a brazillian bus and noting that the dimensions may be completely fubar-ed. |
Dimensions are identical. Made from German ORIGINAL VOLKSWAGEN dies and molds.
Do everybody a favor and try not to speculate about things you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
Peace. |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:13 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet.
The purists have no moral stake in this, they are just terrified that they grossly overpaid for their driveway queens, and that the conversion market will hurt them..as it will. Effectively it will cap off the top price you can get for the " real thing" it probably has already gone this.
If you bought a split to enjoy it, do so. If it's an investment, you are the mark.
_________________
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet.
The purists have no moral stake in this, they are just terrified that they grossly overpaid for their driveway queens, and that the conversion market will hurt them
If you bought a split to enjoy it, do so. If it's an investment, you are the mark. |
I think that you hit the nail on the head.
The people who are buying converted 23W buses are not doing so as an investment.
They are doing it to enjoy a vehicle at a $50K - $100K discount from what a similar original 23W would sell for. |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:02 am Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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hitest
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Don Kombi- You are missing an important part of this updated thread. "bus lover" combined the value of a 40k Brazilian bus investment with the prospect of reselling it in his question. You make a case for your success as an assistant maker and seller of these buses- but you don't address resale. I'd like to see two things:
1) What your customers can expect as a value on their bus when they go to sell it (or what they've sold for if it's public).
2) A link or two to any threads wherein your many happy customers share their experiences buying and owning a converted newer than '67 Brazilian bus.
Either of these should help the earlier poster decide on his own about the true value. It would also give me insight as to whether I'm up to date about these Brazilian buses.
_________________
| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
|
'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| hitest wrote: |
Don Kombi- You are missing an important part of this updated thread. "bus lover" combined the value of a 40k Brazilian bus investment with the prospect of reselling it in his question. You make a case for your success as an assistant maker and seller of these buses- but you don't address resale. I'd like to see two things:
1) What your customers can expect as a value on their bus when they go to sell it (or what they've sold for if it's public).
2) A link or two to any threads wherein your many happy customers share their experiences buying and owning a converted newer than '67 Brazilian bus.
Either of these should help the earlier poster decide on his own about the true value. It would also give me insight as to whether I'm up to date about these Brazilian buses. |
hitest-
1. The value of any car is whatever a buyer is willing to pay.
2. Why should ANYBODY who has a converted 23W bus be involved in TheSamba forums? So the peanut gallery can talk shit and people like you can use the word "hacked" in three consecutive sentences like your previous post?
3. Grumpy turns panels, 11W's, 13W's, and 15W's into 21's and 23's ALL DAY LONG with a line out of his door and a waitlist.....
But yet the Samba forums are eerily silent in regards to these vehicles. Why? It's not smart to throw bloody meat to the sharks here in TheSamba forums. That is the brutal reality in regards to why you dont see and hear much about these vehicles.
4. In regards to "true value"....it is very hard to judge an untested market. All I can speak on is personal experience. I have been called "crazy" by many people for selling a running/driving Turkis 23W for $28,000 (They thought I should have got more!!). Other people, like yourself, will surely value them for less.
5. I dont think it is smart to view ANY VW as an "investment". I have a bunch of faded, original paint, patina, black-plate 1960-1967 Bugs that I bought in 1996-2006 for $3K-$4K each thinking they would appreciate. They haven't. They are still worth $3K-$4K each.
I dont think the buyers of 100K-200K buses are making wise "investments" in terms of dollars and cents. I dont see any downside if the car is nice....but I dont see much upside either.
On the other hand......if I had 100K to use today for business endeavors....I guarantee you I could turn it into 150K within the next 365 days. Blindfolded. That, to me, makes better sense as an investment in comparison to an old VW sitting in the garage. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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Asked and answered above. The poster supplied that his high point was 35k, so I would say no to the 40k value.
These are not investments folks, they are luxury toys. Get investment out of your head in this game.
_________________
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on. |
Good job Everett... You just refuted almost half of the line items without even trying (3 out of the 7).
And Grumpy's price for the conversion is listed at $7000 FYI |
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DonKombi
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2014
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: How can I make a 11 Window VW Bs a 23 Window Samba Bus? |
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| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| DonKombi wrote: |
| easy e wrote: |
40k breakdown... off the cuff round numbers & probably 25+% off
It was probably a $3,000 bus in Brazil
Slap on paint job & Tijuana style upholstery $1,000 ($4,000)
Sell to North American for profit + $4,000 ($8,000)
Shipping + paperwork $3,000 (11,000)
Add sunroof in US $5,000 ($16,000)
Re-do headliner $1,000 ($17,000)
Engine/trans/tires $3,000 ($20,000)
Amount you're overpaying $20,000
But, having a finished bus (not starting from square one) is worth something... maybe $8-10,000?? (very subjective)
Still overpaying (easily) by a good $10,000 |
Easy....you are a good guy.
Here is a million dollars worth of advice for free: stick to what you know.
Your numbers are either a bad joke or put you in the realm of Fantasyland.
Peace |
Since you have done a bunch - Post the real numbers. |
Obviously every car and every situation differs.
I just find it incredibly humorous that people who have ZERO clue about Brazilian buses find the need to casually post numbers that they grasp from thin air. With NO IDEA of what the process entails. Just wild, unadulterated speculation.
Unbelievably funny. |
| Abscate wrote: |
| If I had a successful business doing this the last thing I would publish would be my margins to the chiselers on the Internet. |
For some of those costs - it shouldn't vary that much, there shouldn't be a huge difference on doing a headliner or doing the sunroof conversion.
Same as any other business.
If I do a project for someone and it's $5000 and they ask me to do another one that is the same sort of work it's going to be the same or very close to that same price.
It's pretty easy to refute the breakdown with details without getting specific.
"Headliners cost double that"
"The roof conversion is actually $6000"
"There are no Buses for $3000 in Brazil" (Someone basically said that above)
and so on. |
Good job Everett... You just refuted almost half of the line items without even trying (3 out of the 7).
And Grumpy's price for the conversion is listed at $7000 FYI |
Because you asked....i will give you my judgements on the other 4 line items:
1. Paint and interior for $1,000? Dumb statement. Costs much more.
2. Flipper makes $4000? Another dumb statement. Most guys over there are happy with $500-$1000
3. Shipping + Paperwork $3000? Maybe if Dilma was your mistress.
4. Engine/trans/tires $3000? Here....people want $2500+ just for rebuilt stock 1600 longblocks.....throw in trans/tires and labor and you will easily double that $3000 estimate. |
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