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Need advice on a condenser problem.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sure, you could get one for a 70's vw or 009 distributor and use that, it should work.

Check the resistances or the coils too, most of my VW coils were 8-10K ohm secondary and 3-3.3 primary
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Fred Winterburn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
aha!
Usually the wire is included with the points or condenser, or sometimes sold separately. Glenn is more qualified than I to say what brands are best or exactly what gauge of (metric?) wire was used.........??

A lot of the old cars they coiled the excess wire into a neat spiral.........and it turns out that was actually the correct thing to do! I used to think they were being lazy Very Happy


Sorry guys, But these theories on the condenser aren't quite accurate. The length of wire on the condenser doesn't affect the capacity of the condenser or the electrical circuit in any measureable way as far as the ignition system goes. The size of the condenser varies usually with the number of cylinders, the rpm the engine usually runs at and also varies by manufacturer. Even the distributor cam profile would affect the value chosen. It is sized large enough so that it will reduce arcing at the points thereby reducing energy loss that would otherwise be lost through the arc to ground. The condenser value is not too high so that higher rpm can be achieved and so that it does not oppose current flow through the coil primary when the points close from the energy stored during the last points opening cycle. A little simplistic, but in a nutshell. It doesn't describe the oscillation with the coil primary that occurs, but that is a byproduct rather than a reason for having the condenser. Fred
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't measure it nor why it works. Just came across it a few times in textbooks about tuning ignition systems.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rustforlife wrote:
Glenn, for the time being can I use a condenser normally used on say a .009?

Yes...
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Rustforlife
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice guys. Next beer's on me!
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just always used a common ford condenser from the local Parts store. Hmmmm. Always thought a condenser was a condenser was a condenser. Learn something every day.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MURZI wrote:
I have just always used a common ford condenser from the local Parts store. Hmmmm. Always thought a condenser was a condenser was a condenser. Learn something every day.

Pretty much are.

I'd say that 1/3 of all the cores I rebuild have non-Bosch condensers.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fred Winterburn wrote:
modok wrote:
aha!
Usually the wire is included with the points or condenser, or sometimes sold separately. Glenn is more qualified than I to say what brands are best or exactly what gauge of (metric?) wire was used.........??

A lot of the old cars they coiled the excess wire into a neat spiral.........and it turns out that was actually the correct thing to do! I used to think they were being lazy Very Happy


Sorry guys, But these theories on the condenser aren't quite accurate. The length of wire on the condenser doesn't affect the capacity of the condenser or the electrical circuit in any measureable way as far as the ignition system goes. The size of the condenser varies usually with the number of cylinders, the rpm the engine usually runs at and also varies by manufacturer. Even the distributor cam profile would affect the value chosen. It is sized large enough so that it will reduce arcing at the points thereby reducing energy loss that would otherwise be lost through the arc to ground. The condenser value is not too high so that higher rpm can be achieved and so that it does not oppose current flow through the coil primary when the points close from the energy stored during the last points opening cycle. A little simplistic, but in a nutshell. It doesn't describe the oscillation with the coil primary that occurs, but that is a byproduct rather than a reason for having the condenser. Fred


This is good stuff your saying here makes perfect sense. And the length of the Point and condenser wire to the coil would not affect the fundamental resonance much but it could certainly suppress higher frequency EMF voltage from making it to the points which is probably what is causing the points to burn.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a nutshell u can use any cond that u can mount inside OR outside. As mentioned above it only is used at the initial time points are opening, then as all elect current flo is the path of least resistance the uncharged cap starts to charge allowing points to open far enuf so points don't arc and coils secondary field which is now collapsing sending generated current flo and in the hi v state to plug.NO electronic function which would include the primitive points system happens all at once, it takes time to happen easily working with points sys. In the past IF u got a sharp point build up in points which half would tell if if cap was too large or too small. Caps were stamped as to capacitive size and u go flaps and buy the correct one Nowdays this not possible as far as i know, u get what u get, right or wrong. i never change a cap until in the rare case it proves to be defective, like fuses either good or bad, my 2-cts and as usual no warranty offered.
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am on my 3rd condesor in a year, all new bosch units. I ended up putting on a 30+ year old take off and it seems to be working the best.

I think that bosch quality has finally sunk to its lowest as they stop production for air cooled components. Maybe they are just selling off units that failed quality control in the past.
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royraison
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try an old school trick,,either install a heavy duty condencer such as an Accel with the red wire, or use two stock condencers ,,,
I suspect your engine is producing high cylinder pressure at idle,so its taking more voltage to produce spark and throwing more load on the condencer.

Mallory and other HP coil makes used to sell HP condensers to match thier coils,,
Good luck,
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I ask how you are checking the condenser and say it is dead??
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morymob
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royraison wrote:
Try an old school trick,,either install a heavy duty condencer such as an Accel with the red wire, or use two stock condencers ,,,
I suspect your engine is producing high cylinder pressure at idle,so its taking more voltage to produce spark and throwing more load on the condencer.

Mallory and other HP coil makes used to sell HP condensers to match thier coils,,
Good luck,
How about explaining the 'more load on the condencer' above, how?? Coil determines voltage to plugs given the rest of elect is good,all wires to/from coil/dizzy ,plug wires etc.
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not remember anything about cylinder pressures affecting electric arc coming across the plug electrode in Automotive Electricity class.

I would like to hear it too. Laughing

Someone here before too had told us that the balance on a crank gets skewed when laid down too long. The molecules somehow all migrated down.

Hmnn-kay!
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royraison
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="nsracing"]I do not remember anything about cylinder pressures affecting electric arc coming across the plug electrode in Automotive Electricity class.

I would like to hear it too. Laughing


Sorry you slept thru shop class,, Look under how it works ,in the ignition section of any good auto repair manual..


State a simple fact,,and someone simple will call you on it!
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Aced all my shop classes, ok?

How does cylinder pressure prevent an electric arc coming across the electrodes? Is this some kind of high-compression engine w/ turbo on top of it?

Higher cylinder pressures can give you elevated cylinder temperatures which can affect your plug heat range. But to prevent the electric arc from coming across entirely? Are you out of your mind?

A spark plug has to be about 850 degrees Celsius HOT to clean itself or will foul from fuel.

If you run too lean ..can increase the plug temp.

If you advance timing...can increase your plug temp.

if ambient air and air temp are hot...can increase your plug temp.

High humidty, high barometric pressures, or altitude can affect your plug heat range. All of these can affect your plug heat range so you use the appropriate plugs.

Unless you have some kind of formula that affect movement of electrons across a wire because of cylinder pressure...let us see it.
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Fred Winterburn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I don't know how the subject changed from condensers to cylinder pressure preventing an electric arc at the spark gap, but here is the short answer: The electrical resistance across the spark plug gap is almost proportional to the density of the fuel/air charge that exists between the plug electrodes. Double the cylinder pressure and you double the density and hence the resistance. A higher resistance needs a higher voltage to strike the arc. Fred

nsracing wrote:
I Aced all my shop classes, ok?

How does cylinder pressure prevent an electric arc coming across the electrodes? Is this some kind of high-compression engine w/ turbo on top of it?

Higher cylinder pressures can give you elevated cylinder temperatures which can affect your plug heat range. But to prevent the electric arc from coming across entirely? Are you out of your mind?

A spark plug has to be about 850 degrees Celsius HOT to clean itself or will foul from fuel.

If you run too lean ..can increase the plug temp.

If you advance timing...can increase your plug temp.

if ambient air and air temp are hot...can increase your plug temp.

High humidty, high barometric pressures, or altitude can affect your plug heat range. All of these can affect your plug heat range so you use the appropriate plugs.

Unless you have some kind of formula that affect movement of electrons across a wire because of cylinder pressure...let us see it.
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royraison
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="nsracing"]I Aced all my shop classes, ok?

How does cylinder pressure prevent an electric arc coming across the electrod ?

nsracing,, What do you race , a bicycle ?
Almost every thing we do to increase the power of our engines increases cylinder pressures,,higher pressure on the fuel air mixture in the combustion chamber requires a higher voltage to bridge the gap in the spark plug.

theres a site you should read,,

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/Ignition.htm#Timing

There is an excellent explanition on coils and condencers.


Good luck,
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know how a combustion engine works.

You are the one that mentioned about cylinder pressure preventing ignition. I have not heard of a VW engine having too much compression so cannot fire.

Cylinder pressure is NOT a function of OHM's LAW...or Power Equation. Maybe you should look these up before you say anymore.

You site a lawntractor site to back up your claim of engine function? You gotta be kidding me.

You have 69 posts by the way.
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Rustforlife
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nsracing wrote:
May I ask how you are checking the condenser and say it is dead??

Hi, if you are asking me, I'm not checking it. Engine idle went choppy and stalled. I replaced the condenser (3 x now), it runs again.
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